Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 316 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 22  Next

Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2

 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 696
Location: Sweden
Dave wrote:
OK, I went back through old PMs and e-mails. From what I can tell I put it in there and SG approved it to handle Ginger's second point for all the Farseer types in secondary lists (Mounted Farseers, Spiritseers, Seer Council, etc) so we didn't have to specifically spell them out. Given that this is actually a game affecting change though (as neither of us brought up the Warlock), I'm going to roll it back to "Farseer" instead of "Farsight".

It might have been "Farsight" in the TP for two years but I doubt it was used in many games as Warlocks are pretty rare to begin with (I've seen two fielded here since I started playing). Once more, I'm willing to bet no one noticed you could do it before Ginger brought it up. The Warlock is scary enough on its own before you factor in the ability to summon, playtests are definitely in order before that change gets approved.

Part of the reason for putting together the TP is so we can catch things like this as similar changes have snuck in over the years. There's a system for approval now, so we should stick to it.

Lastly, sorry for allowing this to sneak in. I took a heavy hand to the army lists to standardize and reduce the language. It wasn't my intention to introduce games changes however, just (ironically) reduce confusion and allow language to be dropped in where needed.
Well first of all you didn't let this sneak in. SG approved it so no sneaking :)
What makes me a little confused is that a rule that has been used for the last two years without a single complaint is reverted because you think that it might be a problem in combination with a unit that basically no one uses. Is it not better to leave it as it is and do the change if it becomes a problem?
Also the recent changes to this list was made without proper playtests so why demand it to this (in my mind) small change? Do we need 18 games with the Warlock or what do you have in mind?

I have basically never used the warlock myself and never played against anyone who have either so its not a big issue for me, just want to know how things work around here so I hope I do not sound to aggressive :)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:06 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:35 am
Posts: 4311
I don't think Warlock use is that rare, certainly its quite frequently seen in the UK. Letting it summon the Avatar is an unneeded boost.

SG never presented the change for approval so it was never approved. At best its a typo.

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:19 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9539
Location: Worcester, MA
Saying that it's been used for the last two years is a fallacy. If that were true we would have seen it brought up sooner and we'd have plenty of battle reports of the Warlock summoning the avatar. From there it would be a simple matter for PFE to throw it up to Tim for him to rubber stamp it and the ERC to vote on it. We don't have reps like that though, hence my assumption that people simply didn't notice it. If PFE wants to pursue the change, fine, I just want it to go through the process like everything else.

The recent changes that were approved were absolutely tested, see PFE100's Beil-tan playtests:
search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=pfe100&fid%5B%5D=84&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Not all were approved, mainly because more than two of us thought they weren't tested enough.

As to the process for approval, see here:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=24023

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 696
Location: Sweden
Steve54 wrote:
I don't think Warlock use is that rare, certainly its quite frequently seen in the UK. Letting it summon the Avatar is an unneeded boost.

SG never presented the change for approval so it was never approved. At best its a typo.
Ok, but in the UK the Avatar can not be summoned by the Warlock even if we change it here, right?
I was just quoting Dave when he said that SG approved the change, not the ERC...

Dave wrote:
Saying that it's been used for the last two years is a fallacy. If that were true we would have seen it brought up sooner and we'd have plenty of battle reports of the Warlock summoning the avatar. From there it would be a simple matter for PFE to throw it up to Tim for him to rubber stamp it and the ERC to vote on it. We don't have reps like that though, hence my assumption that people simply didn't notice it.

The recent changes that were approved were absolutely tested, see PFE100's Beil-tan playtests:
search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=pfe100&fid%5B%5D=84&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Not all were approved, mainly because more than a few of us thought they weren't tested enough.

As to the process for approval, see here:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=24023
ok, like I said the Avatar is no biggie for me so do what ever you think is best. I will probobly never have to face one myself :)

Perhaps I'm stupid but I have read the document several times before and it clearly states that 3 different playgroups need 6 games each before the list can be sent to the ERC. Also the games have to be played using the Epic tournament play rules.
PFE100 have been very good at doing battlereports no question about it but he is not three independent groups and he has played with different "versions" of the rules. (And used some houserules: CAP a CAP and not using the webbway portal when enemies is within 15cm for example)
The AMTL list was refused because two or three games of 18 was played against EpicUK list just to put things in perspective ::)
(I'm not saying the changes was not tested I'm just saying that the document you linked to was not used by the ERC. I do not mind, if that is ok then I can have the 18th game with the Spacewolfs and the list can be put forward to be approved :spin )


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:43 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9539
Location: Worcester, MA
That's to get approval. Once it's approved it falls under the last paragraph "Retaining Approved".

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 696
Location: Sweden
Dave wrote:
That's to get approval. Once it's approved it falls under the last paragraph "Retaining Approved".
ok, so all the recent changes that were put forward were considered minor and needed no playtesting at all and the Warlock being able to summon the Avatar is a major change and thus need 18 games?
If so why link to all PFE100's playtests, I do not get it?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:13 am
Posts: 361
Location: Oz
<CS Edit - removed>


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:01 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9539
Location: Worcester, MA
Some of the changes that were put forward were judged "sufficiently playtested", and approved, based on the battle reports that PFE submitted. Those same battle reports were among those that I linked to.

The Warlock summon change didn't get put forward in the same way, hence it hasn't been voted on, and therefore hasn't been approved.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:02 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9539
Location: Worcester, MA
JimXII wrote:
I understand you control the tournament pack but what gives you the right to change the eldar list unilaterally?


Absolutely nothing, hence the change that I unintentionally introduced has been removed. If people want it introduced then it needs to be done like everything else.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:07 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 696
Location: Sweden
Dave wrote:
Some of the changes that were put forward were judged "sufficiently playtested", and approved, based on the battle reports that PFE submitted. Those same battle reports were among those that I linked to.

The Warlock summon change didn't get put forward in the same way, hence it hasn't been voted on, and therefore hasn't been approved.
So we do not need 18 games with three different groups anymore?
In the document there is no mentioning of "sufficient playtesting" so perhaps it's time to update it? (and why did't the AMTL go through in that case? Still confused :-\ )

Ok, then Greg just need to formally put the Avatar "change" forward to get it approved?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:17 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9539
Location: Worcester, MA
Maybe it needs an update, but the process is working and I don't think we need to re-visit it as it was such a headache to begin with. In a nutshell:

If a list hasn't been approved it needs 18 games to get approved (like we did for 'nids, AMTL and Knights).

If a list has been approved but needs to change those changes are playtested and sent to the human/xenos chair. They can say "no, test it so more" or bring it to the ERC. The ERC can say "no, test it some more". Anything that gets passed all that gets worked into the new approved list.

If you're still confused, PM me as we're just going in circles at this point and this is not Eldar specific.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 696
Location: Sweden
Dave wrote:
If you're still confused, PM me as we're just going in circles at this point and this is not Eldar specific.
So true! Thanks for taking the time to explain. The way it works is better then the way it is written so keep it up. Think I get most of it now and I understand that the decision has been made, will PM if more questions pop up :)

So back to Eldar.
I'm up for testing and approving the change and to take away the +15 p for the Fire Prism. The +5 suggestion just seems wierd. I know the focus is supposed to be on the Iyanden but in case I get a game or two with the Biel-Tan I will try and test a Warlock summoning the Avatar and a lot of cheap Fireprisms :)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:57 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Thanks Greg

I totally agree that we ought to allow 2) and 3), indeed I thought they had been agreed many years ago, so was surprised at their rejection.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:45 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 696
Location: Sweden
PFE100 wrote:
I’m will be refocusing on the Biel-Tan again, and will be testing the following changes…

1) In the Strategy Phase of any turn place the Avatar within 15cm of a formation that contains a unit with the Farsight ability before making a strategy roll. The Avatar counts as its own formation and may only enter play in this manner. In the End Phase of that turn remove the Avatar before rallying formations. Once the Avatar has been removed it may not return.
2) Swords of Vaul: Replace any number of Falcons with an equal number of Fire prisms for free
3) Engine of Vaul: The second engine cost is now 200 points

I have attached a new PDF with the above changes and is called Biel-Tan 4.2A-2015-04-03-playtest
on the first page of this thread.

So my apologies for the refocus, but once the above is approved, then we can move forward......

Good call :)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 316 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 22  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net