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Reviewing Spirit Stones

 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:35 am 
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Quote (Jaldon @ 07 April 2006 (01:10))
[...] in fact we stopped using the SS rule with the Eldar two weeks ago and I have yet to see anykind of major problem.

Sorry but I cannot agree that we are down to just point tweeks.

Hi,

actually, neither do I.

I've recently played two games with my Eldar (against Space Marines both times) without the Spirit Stone rule, and I've yet to see the difference.

I don't have time to make a full battle report, but what I can say is that the absence of Spirit Stones had no impact whatsoever on my defeat in the first game and my victory in the second game.

It just meant that each turn I was left with the odd BM on one or two formations and that I had to be a bit more careful with these formations.

Having even one BM on an Aspect Warhost made it risky to directly assault with it, so I had to use that formation as support only. It also made it more difficult to retain initiative.

If I had used Spirit Stones, none of my formations would have ended the turn with BMs on them and I could have used them much more agressively.

I really do not think that Eldar need the SS rule, but what we need is :

- players playing games without that rule and reporting the results ;
- some word from the Army Champions : where are MC23 and Tepoc? It would be nice to have feedback from them too and/or some kind of playtest suggestions.






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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:53 am 
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I am curious how opponents of the SS account for the steady decline of wins for the Eldar over the last 12 months.

Keep in mind that the previous data hasn't gone away, so the number is harder and harder to push into 50% territory as more games are played.

Yet there it is in a concise chart.  That number has dropped 10% in 12 months.  All the "but when I play"s in the world can't argue with statistics.

I'd even bet that if we pulled from Battlestats the games played for the last three months those wins would be closer to 50%.

HUNDREDS of games played, indicating that the Eldar win ratio is not that far out of whack.  With a lack of other information, that is the only reliable tool there is in order to judge the balance of the list.

Think about it.  If what you are saying about the SS is true (that removing them from play hasnt made a difference) then it won't matter if you leave them in!!!

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:09 pm 
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Think about it.  If what you are saying about the SS is true (that removing them from play hasnt made a difference) then it won't matter if you leave them in!!!


Or you could also say that if the absence of Spirit Stones makes no difference, they were not needed in the first place...

Anyway, what I meant was that I believe Eldar are just as efficient without the Spirit Stones (so no difference there) BUT it also makes them more fragile so you have to take that into account when you elaborate your strategy. An all-out attack is still feasible, it's just a bit more difficult to achieve.

That, and it seems more fair to your opponent, who has worked to place BMs on your formations and is (understandably) frustrated when none of them keeps a single BM in the end phase.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:17 pm 
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Um, I put in a load of eldar defeats as I was using stuff like the orginal death from the skies AX10 against them.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:28 pm 
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Quote (Hojyn @ 07 April 2006 (12:09))
That, and it seems more fair to your opponent, who has worked to place BMs on your formations and is (understandably) frustrated when none of them keeps a single BM in the end phase.

Do people make this complaint about Imperial Guard and their Commissars?

If an Eldar formation has 4 or more blast markers, unless it contains the Autarch, it's going to have 1 left at the end of the turn.

The Eldar are supposed to be swift and decisive in their attacks: "Swordwind", not cautious and hesitant.

Tau players are feeling the effect that a linger blast marker can have as well, are taking steps to get the option of a leader in more formations.  

Remember Spirit Stones doesn't help you when you Marshal, and it only removes a blast marker if you *successfully* regroup in the End Phase.  If you're aggressively pushing against the Eldar that's only going to be a 3+ roll for a lot of formations.

If Eldar were seen to be "paying" for the ability, would people still be complaining?

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:31 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 07 April 2006 (13:17))
Um, I put in a load of eldar defeats as I was using stuff like the orginal death from the skies AX10 against them.

Which means you also had a hand in the 61% win/loss ratio of the Tau.  :p


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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:43 pm 
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Quote (Chroma @ 07 April 2006 (13:28))

Do people make this complaint about Imperial Guard and their Commissars?


Well, I do when my opponent rolls a 10+ and I don't when he rolls a 2 or a 3.  :p

The thing is, Commissars are random, so its difficult to complain about them.

If an Eldar formation has 4 or more blast markers, unless it contains the Autarch, it's going to have 1 left at the end of the turn.


Most Eldar formations with 4+ BMs are going to be broken anyway, and the small formations that rally in the end phase (Vehicle troupes, mostly) WILL remove ALL blast markers instead of keeping just one.

Tau players are feeling the effect that a linger blast marker can have as well, are taking steps to get the option of a leader in more formations.

And I think something similar shoud be done for the Eldar. I really liked the "transferable leader prophet" idea. You'd then have to make a choice between more Guardians (and more BM removal) or more Aspects (and less BM removal). Incidentally, this would benefit the Ulthwe list (who has more prophets), who could then perhaps get rid of its controversial SR5.  :)


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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:04 pm 
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Can I ask for some information on battlestats?  Like, what is it, where is it, and what does it do?


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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:06 pm 
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Could those people who have played games without spirit stones post their army list for each of the battles.

One of our claims is that spirit stones are needed by some formations more than others. Therefore, it would be useful to know (at least in a vague way) how many and what types of formartion were being used.


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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:12 pm 
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Quote (Gotchaye @ 07 April 2006 (14:04))
Can I ask for some information on battlestats? ?Like, what is it, where is it, and what does it do?

Battlestats is a website that lets you record the results of your games for various Specialist Games.  I believe it was put together by Pixelgeek a while back.  

Here's a link: Battlestats

You need to register, but it's free.  It's certainly not scientific, but it tends to give a "feel" for how armies are doing.  I try to submit all my game results to it.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:21 pm 
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Hoyjn, if it ain't broke don't fix it.  Words from my pop and so true in this case.

The army is not broken, most would agree.  It needs a nudge.  The argument on pages and pages of ethereal paper is how to nudge it.

Both you and Jaldon (not to mention others on this and various posts) have been doing everything you can to manage the BMs in a fashion different from what is on the published list.

It isn't working.
:o0 Eliminating the SS rule had no effect by your own admissions.
:8: Batreps on the MC23 suggestion are showing that it has no effect.

If it makes no difference, then you leave it as it is.  Less work and less confusion for everybody.

My theory is that, over several hundred games the removal of SS will actually make a huge difference - big enough to upset the balance of the list.

So if I am right we should leave them alone.  If I am wrong we should leave them alone.

So leave them alone.  Find some other way to nudge the list. :blues: Spirit Stone Body Guards :blues:

Incidentally nobody has come up with an explanation for the 10% steady decline yet.  :80:

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:41 pm 
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http://www.specialist-games.co.uk/battlestats/

The link for Battlestats.

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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:44 pm 
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Battlestats is useless as a measure of whether forces are doing well, balanced, or are over performing. If people want to look at them for entertainment value - fine, but beyond that - the results are irrelivent.

They are a conglomerate of test games against legal, fan, and development lists.

Results do not account for different versions of lists

Results do not account for skillsets or errors made

Results do not account for experimental rules in use

The list goes on...

Furthermore, even if it was a perfect accounting system - which its not even in the REALM of being close, no one can say that all games are being posted by all players. No one can say that people with an agenda aren't simply dumping in dummy data.

I for one quit posting there a long time ago as its a waste of time and the data is not even close to valid.

I cannot support a SINGLE conclusion for development if Battlestats is used for supporting evidence.





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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:57 pm 
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Eliminating the SS rule had no effect by your own admissions.
Batreps on the MC23 suggestion are showing that it has no effect.

If it makes no difference, then you leave it as it is. ?Less work and less confusion for everybody.


What?

Whoa - wait a minute. I'm sorry, but that's flawed logic!


1st, if it makes no difference, why is it a rule? That's the real question!

Intentionally Exagerated Example:
Why not have a rule that says all eldar where shiny armor, so you must paint all armor with high gloss paint. It makes no difference in how they play - so why have the rule in there?

Why not have a rule in there that says the Earth orbits the sun? Answer: because it makes no difference with how the Eldar play - so no reason to put something so silly in there.

If it TRULY makes no difference, then you DON'T have a rule for it. That is logical.

In the case of SS, the answer is simple - SS does make a difference in how the Eldar play. That is undeniable.

Back to reality...

Eldar win too many games - period. *If* Eldar win the same percentage of games with and without the SS rule - that's another problem with the Eldar.

The current question is simple - is the SS rule needed, yes or no?

If its needed, why is it needed?

Who needs it?

Is it needed list wide?

If its not needed - it should be eliminated.

The EASIEST way to test these questions is to start by wiping the slate clean... Play some games without the SS rule.

Make a note of when you could have made use of the SS rule had you been playing it. Then see if you still win the game.

If you are capable of winning 50%+ of your games GREAT!!! That means the Eldar don't need a list wide SS rule.

If when removing it, you are still winning 60%+ of your games against equally matched opponents and lists, then that means not only do we not need the SS rule, but there are OTHER PROBLEMS that also need to be addressed.

Once we know one way or the other - we can decide how to address the situation. Addressing may come in the form of rule removal. Addressing it may come in the form of points increase... there are a host of ways to address it. HOWEVER, we first have to know what the reality of the situation is.

This removal and batrep measuring process is VERY logical and VERY simple to administer. It will also allow us to define whether the list needs the rule or whether specific units/formations need the rule.

Cheers,




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 Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:59 pm 
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No one can say that people with an agenda aren't simply dumping in dummy data.

This is factually incorrect.  Individual entries/posters can be identified.

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