[Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? |
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dafrca
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them?  Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:45 am |
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| Quote (Gotchaye @ 15 May 2006 (17:34)) | | If they're not a good choice for a tournament game, and if they're fine in terms of stats and abilities (something I disagree with - see earleir), then isn't the implication that something should be changed concerning the GT lists? |
Yes
dafrca
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Markconz
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:54 am |
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| Quote (Gotchaye @ 16 May 2006 (00:34)) | | If they're not a good choice for a tournament game, and if they're fine in terms of stats and abilities (something I disagree with - see earleir), then isn't the implication that something should be changed concerning the GT lists? |
No. I only said they are not the best choice for the _average_ tournament game. Not tournament games per se. Big difference.
Similar arguments (units not good enough) have been made about other choices before. For example people arguing that
Bombards don't cut it in tournament games when you could have Manticores. However there are situations (infantry hordes and tyranids come to mind) where Bombards are much more useful than Manticores. I believe Banshees are a similar case - I use them a lot and I don't have a problem with their current stats, if they are underpowered it is certainly not a 'biggy' in terms of the lists problems IMO.
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Suvarov454
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 4:17 am |
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I take them, but that's because 1) they're already painted, 2) I have no Warp Spider minis, and 3) they're better than yet another squadron of Falcons. If it matters any, I'm running an Ulthwe list, I just have 4 stands of them, and the only other painted Aspects I have are Swooping Hawks. Yes, I desperately need to get to painting my other Aspects, but two games in 15 months (both playing Orks) hasn't been much of an incentive. 
P.S. I originally painted them for the SM/TL rules, where they *seriously* rocked.
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Chroma
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:51 pm |
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| Quote (Ilushia @ 15 May 2006 (20:48)) | | I don't think giving them Macro-Weapons would significantly detract from the Shining Spears. |
MW attacks seems a bit much for me, I don't see Banshees cleaving through tanks and such.
I think giving them infiltrators might be the way to go to give them a little more "oomph". Thoughts?
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Lightbringer
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:05 pm |
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I painted 4 stands of banshees up for the last battles I played with my eldar force. However, at the last minute I bottled it and replaced them with more scorpions. Consequently I have never even tried them!
Then I had a battle the other weekend with my new nids against my friend Adrian's IG force. Ade's rough riders assaulted one of my large common swarms.
We sorted out his first strikes and flipped the dead gaunts so that I didn't roll for them in the main round of combat. What followed was a debate as to whether the riders should now use their FF value for the normal round of assault resoltion (those that had kmade a kill and were no longer in base-to-base)
- we decided that we would let the riders use their CC value as they 'were' in base-to-base when the round began.
If you play banshees this way they suddenly become a viable force again.
Not sure if this is a tourney-legal ruling decision but it worked for us.
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Chroma
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:59 pm |
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| Quote (Lightbringer @ 17 May 2006 (13:05)) | - we decided that we would let the riders use their CC value as they 'were' in base-to-base when the round began.
If you play banshees this way they suddenly become a viable force again. |
Since, unlike Rough Riders, Banshees don't have an extra attack, this would only really affect the Exarch's extra attack, which isn't first strike, so it certainly doesn't seem to be any kind of balancing "boost" in my opinion.
I'd still take Warp Spiders! 
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Lightbringer
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:16 pm |
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Good point! (hangs head in shame) 
Now where's me coat?
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Ilushia
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:25 pm |
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If they just gained Infiltrators I think I'd still default to taking Warp Spiders. Maybe Macro Weapons is a bit much. But if not that, then what? As it is they're slower, more vulnerable and require getting into base-to-base to be effective. What do they actually gain on Warp Spiders? Their attacks are 3+ instead of 4+. That's nice. But is it really worth an extra 30cm of range, a 1 point better saving throw, a more dispersed formation and the ability to move through impassable terrain? I'd say no. But I could be wrong. They just don't feel all that useful to me, as they are. Giving them Infiltrate is nice, but I don't think it'd be enough of a change to make them good enough for me, personally, to take.
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:13 pm |
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How does infiltrator affect units disembarking from transports?
I don't think banshees should get MWs, since in 40k they can't hurt vehicles at all. Also, they shouldn't get extra attacks. I don't think they should get infiltrator, either, since they aren't supposed to be as fast as the spiders are.
What if their CC weapons were given the "sniper" ability? Does the sniper ability work in assaults? If it does work in assaults, that would make banshees pretty annoying to the opposing player.
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dptdexys
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:33 pm |
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Before giving the banshees a boost how do they compare against other aspects ,is it more of a case that the warp spiders need to lose some effectiveness rather than banshees gain something.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:45 pm |
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| Quote (dptdexys @ 17 May 2006 (18:33)) | | Before giving the banshees a boost how do they compare against other aspects ,is it more of a case that the warp spiders need to lose some effectiveness rather than banshees gain something. |
I don't think so. Compared to virtually any other Aspect Warrior group the Banshees are fairly pale and useless. Dire Avengers get more attacks, and only need to be in firefight range to do so. Fire Dragons get Macro-Weapon ranged attacks and Macro-Weapon firefight attacks. Dark Reapers get 2x AP shots at long range and very nice firefight ability. Striking Scorpions get extra attacks in melee and better armor saves. Howling Banshees get slightly better melee ability and first strike. Shining Spears get vastly higher move-rate and Lance weapons in melee. Swooping Hawks are as fast as SHining Spears, and can teleport, plus have good firefight. Warp Spiders get Infiltrate and First Strike, plus slightly better armor saves then others.
I'd consider most of those to be about equal to one another. Just the Howling Banshees basically replicate the same 'function' as the Warp Spiders, but the Warp Spiders do it better (since they can get First Strike at range, charge further and have better armor saves compared to Banshees). The other aspects all have their own unique useful positions on the field. This might just be a feeling amonst the groups playing, and not really true, mind you. The Banshees might be more useful then I think they are, but they don't feel all that useful to me.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:20 pm |
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Semaj: Infiltrate gives no benefits to dismounting troops.
Banshees: They could get multiple attacks at a lower value, or they could get one attack at first strike and one at normal.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:40 pm |
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I'd be in favor of them getting one attack at First Strike and one at normal. That'd make them a bit more punchy then Spiders over-all, getting 2 attacks each instead of 1 attack each. While the Striking Scorpions remain the better group for absorbing counter-strikes from the enemy. The only thing I could think of which they might suffer for in this case is more about the way that melee/ranged attacks work in assaults. If they were to wipe out the units in base-to-base with them with their first strike, would they then be forced to make their normal strike as ranged instead of melee? This is actually a question which has been floating around for a while, and thus far I haven't seen any official answer for it that I can remember.
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:12 pm |
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Giving banshees an extra attack at a lower CC value would be a problem because then they would better than scorpions (assuming a 4+CC value). Despite the better armor on the scorpions, the difference isn't equal to the benefit given by first-strike. Unless you're talking about 2xfirst strike CC5+, which maybe okay (but seems about as effective as they are now, thus it would still be a problem).
Maybe bump the CC value to 2+? I'd really hate to see that, but maybe that's what it would take. I'll reiterate my proposal for sniper for their CC weapons (if that even has an effect, which now that I think about it, it might not, given multiple attacks and the hit distribution rule for assaults). Too bad infiltrator includes 2 abilities (double move on engage actions, ignore closest enemy unit requirements), as giving them the latter would seem okay, but not giving them the former.
OR Maybe change the first strike ability of the warp spiders so that it is part of the weapon stats (thus making it FF only), instead of part of the unit stats.
While we're on this topic, do people really think scorpions are worth the same as avengers. It seems to me like avengers are better, since it is far easier to get into FF range (and create annoying clipping attacks) than it is to get into CC. The armor differences don't seem equal to the tactical differences.
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clausewitz
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Post subject: [Aspects] Howling Banshees, does anyone take them? Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:32 pm |
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If you are assaulting tanks it is usually better to use CC as tanks tend to have decent/good FF but poor CC. So Scorpions would be better than Avengers for that purpose. The armour save also works well when the two are combined.
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