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Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player?

 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
LordotMilk wrote:
Ulrik wrote:
If you're going to play Biel-tan against RA-heavy armies, would Shining Spears be a good choice?


That depends. My experience with them is that they are a cheap, resilient (for eldar), assault initiating formation with a good initiative. This would be good against any army.

Their CC ability (lance or not) is too weak to be of any consequence in my experience. Moscovian has a different experience with them and apparently has already slaughtered large Titans due to their Lance ability.


Not just titans. I play Imperial Guard opponents frequently and there is nothing quite as satisfying as having the Storm Serpent - Shining Spear one-two punch to obliterate a Leman Russ formation.

Storm Serpent doubles and lays a BM on a LR formation within 30cm.
Retain... Assault with Shining Spears, eight strong, plus two exarchs.

Leman Russ have lousy close combat values, which means they will have 2x FF4+, 1x FF5+ (token Hydra), 6x CC6+, 1 MW6+ for the Commissar who will inevitably be in there somewhere. That's 2.5 hits. Their awesome armor is halved because of the lance shots from the Shining Spears, so now they are running with 4+ armor straight up.

Shining Spears come in with 4+ armor, equal to the Leman Russ, 8x CC4+, plus an extra 2 hits a 4+ which means they will take out an average of 2.5 Russes.

Eldar...
+2 for BM advantage.
+1 for Inspiring Advantage (assuming all characters survived on both sides of the assault)
-1 for outnumbered (and half the time you'll have equalized the numbers)

So you go +2 into an assault roll against arguably the toughest formation in the game after reducing their numbers by a quarter. And God help the LR player if you've managed to kill just one tank prior to the attack, as that puts you at a +3 or +4 going into the assault roll.

If you lose, you lose small and withdraw 70cm to safety.
If you win you win big, breaking (most likely) the enemy's BTS, costing him at least one more unit, setting it up for a severe pounding while broken, and you still withdraw 35cm to fight another day.

Shining Spears also FF at 5+, which make them perfect for clipping assaults.


The math work out, however, I find close contact hard to achieve in most instances with more than 1-3 units. Even if you manage the feat of contacting with all of them, you will kill 2 LR, though retaliation will be much softened.

As I stated you should win the assault due to your charismatic exarchs and prepping, but you wont actually kill much Leman russ.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:22 pm 
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Breaking the spearhead of an IG army which accounts for over 20% of the army’s point value, killing 2 (or 3) out 10 brutally hard units, setting it up so that disrupt weapons will violate the Russes with every shot (Eldar have an abundance of disrupt… Void Spinners, Night Spinners, Phoenix Bombers), and doing that with a 350 point formation has got to be the best deal ever. Not to mention the psychological effect on the IG player who watches his tough-as-nails Leman Russes disintegrate before his very eyes. >:D

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
Alaitoc is just as, if not more, flexible as Biel-Tan, and it has no special rules or formations (unless you insist on counting aspect troupes and ranger hosts as special formations simply because Biel-tan flips it).

Alaitoc lacks the punch of a full Aspect host, and is therefore likely harder to use, but for me I'd say the aspect troupe is more flexible than a full host, not less.


I would count troupes and hosts as special formations because they are the opposite of Biel-Tan.

Your second paragraph sums up why I feel that the Biel-Tan list trumps the Alaitoc list for a beginner. I originally had painted some of my models in the Alaitoc colour scheme for SM2, but after examining the NetEA Alaitoc list, I decided that it wasn't for me, on the basis that not having access to full Aspect Hosts didn't suit my style of play.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:53 pm 
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Irisado wrote:
Your second paragraph sums up why I feel that the Biel-Tan list trumps the Alaitoc list for a beginner.

Totally concur

Irisado wrote:
I originally had painted some of my models in the Alaitoc colour scheme for SM2, but after examining the NetEA Alaitoc list, I decided that it wasn't for me, on the basis that not having access to full Aspect Hosts didn't suit my style of play.


[pedantry ahead :D]

Since this thread concerns a newish player I will remind people that the color of your minis has nothing to do with choice of list you're taking. However I had mad respect for anyone like Irisado who strives to keep their colors and lists matching, it has no bearing on the game. My Minotaurs show up as Blood Angels and Iron Hands all the time :)

carry on

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:10 pm 
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Irisado wrote:
I would count troupes and hosts as special formations because they are the opposite of Biel-Tan.


What you are saying is that Biel-tan is the default list because Biel-tan is the default list. Seriously.

It can be the default list because it's the first one to be official and the only one in a print book, but nothing in the list itself makes it more "default" or "basic" than other lists. The Aspect Host perfectly encapsulates Biel-tan - a big reliance on aspects which just isn't present in any other Eldar army. They're elites, not the backbone (that's guardians).

As somebody who started out with Warhammer 40k in the 2nd edition, what really bugs me about Alaitoc is that they have an Autarch as their supreme commander and not a Farseer.

I still agree that Biel-tan is more newb-friendly.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:37 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
Irisado wrote:
I would count troupes and hosts as special formations because they are the opposite of Biel-Tan.


What you are saying is that Biel-tan is the default list because Biel-tan is the default list. Seriously.

As somebody who started out with Warhammer 40k in the 2nd edition, what really bugs me about Alaitoc is that they have an Autarch as their supreme commander and not a Farseer.

I still agree that Biel-tan is more newb-friendly.


I agree with your stance on lists, though i think the reason aspect troupes are a bit too flexible atm is due to their being no discount for BT Aspect hosts.

However, the last two Eldar codexes allow for Autarchs being HQ units for all Eldar armies, and so are not particularly Aspect-related, apart from their training.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:05 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Since this thread concerns a newish player I will remind people that the color of your minis has nothing to do with choice of list you're taking. However I had mad respect for anyone like Irisado who strives to keep their colors and lists matching, it has no bearing on the game. My Minotaurs show up as Blood Angels and Iron Hands all the time :)

carry on


I agree that colours are irrelevant. They are irrelevant for me now too, since I stopped playing Alaitoc, but luckily it only affects my old SM2 Wave Serpents and Fire Storms (which I use solely when playing SM2 or NetEpic), as Aspect Warrior colours transcend multiple craftworlds.

Ulrik wrote:
What you are saying is that Biel-tan is the default list because Biel-tan is the default list. Seriously.

It can be the default list because it's the first one to be official and the only one in a print book, but nothing in the list itself makes it more "default" or "basic" than other lists. The Aspect Host perfectly encapsulates Biel-tan - a big reliance on aspects which just isn't present in any other Eldar army. They're elites, not the backbone (that's guardians).

As somebody who started out with Warhammer 40k in the 2nd edition, what really bugs me about Alaitoc is that they have an Autarch as their supreme commander and not a Farseer.

I still agree that Biel-tan is more newb-friendly.


When you put it that way, then, yes, that's essentially what I am trying to say.

Guardians are the backbone of both lists, I agree, it's just that the size of Biel-Tan Aspect formations makes that list more forgiving for new players.

Regarding second edition 40K, what you have to remember is that there was no Autarch back then, so trying to compare it to the EA lists as a result is a bit of a moot point.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:25 am 
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Irisado wrote:
Regarding second edition 40K, what you have to remember is that there was no Autarch back then, so trying to compare it to the EA lists as a result is a bit of a moot point.


No, the Eldar used to be led by Seers (which is pretty sensible when they're trained leaders who can see the future). Autarchs show up for the first time in Epic: Swordwind. I'm not sure if they're an invention by Jervis that the 40k team liked or if they were already in the works for the 4th ed codex. It's still a change from the old background, and one which I think fits Biel-tan but not the Eldar in general. The concept of an Autarch commanding Farseers (like they do in Epic) is ridiculous outside the warrior-dominated BT.

edit: We've gone pretty far afield, but it doesn't look like anybody disagrees that BT is the best starting place.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:00 am 
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I think I know which army Matt will pick - Ulthwe - the one with the highest SR.
That Give's Matt the best chance to influence the game.
As most units are the same, the higher SR will give Matt the battlefield control he likes.

I kinda hope I'm wrong though... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Onyx wrote:
I think I know which army Matt will pick - Ulthwe - the one with the highest SR.
That Give's Matt the best chance to influence the game.
As most units are the same, the higher SR will give Matt the battlefield control he likes.
I kinda hope I'm wrong though... :D


Pretty close - it would be either Ulthwe or Biel Tan, but you're absolutely right about the reason. They gain it in different ways, but both have ways to gain early Battlefield Control.

Eldar sound fun. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:21 pm 
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If you're not dictating the battle with Eldar, you're probably losing ;) [/sweeping-generalisation]

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:06 pm 
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To be fair, I have found they work really well on the counter-punch - where they encourage the enemy to over-reach. Getting the enemy to actually *do* this can be a challenge - especially when the opponent knows how good the Eldar can be in experienced hands - witness Moscovian's views


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