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Epic: Frontier need playtester

 Post subject: Modeling King Dragon Riders
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 12:12 am 
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[color=#FFBF00]One model I came across is actually from the Reaper line of minatures. Initially I went for hte clear choice: their Raptors to tame. Then I came across these models, and they are actually the correct scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Frontier need playtester
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 12:32 am 
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How much Epic Armageddon have you actually played? It’s good that you have the enthusiasm and interest to put something like this together but the list you’ve posted breaks many conventions for epic army lists and unit profiles and it needs a lot of work as it’s currently overpowered in many ways. I’m not going to be able to comment in detail as I have overdue uni work I should really be working on, but I’ll quickly comment on a few things:

Are you aware there are already two Blood Axe lists in existence? (one including more stolen/traded imperial vehicles than the other). It would be better to use one of those than writing a new one. Have a look in the draft Ork compendium for the existing lists.

45cm for a flying dinosaur is completely insane, that’s the fastest in the game! A Land Speeder can travel at speeds up to 350 kilometres per hour which translates to a move of 35cm in epic. A flying dinosaur would be a lot slower than that and should have a movement of 20cm or 25cm not 45cm.

Many of your units are over-armed, too cheap, in too small formation sizes/points or all at once. 100 points should be the absolute minimum and units that cheap are rare, most being 150-200+

Exodites would definitely not have an Avatar – only craftworlds do. You should loose the Biel-tann and Imperial Knight allies too, I understand Biel-tann and Saim-hann have background links to the Exodites (though I seriously doubt the Imperial Knights would), but Epic tournament army lists are focussed on a particular race/army and should not include allies with the exception of titans or aircraft.

I wouldn’t worry about figure rarity as there’s always proxy models and myself and Elsmore have collecting sizeable Exodite armies (though mine is smaller now as some has been sold off).

It’s also really bad practice (and I believe strictly speaking illegal) to re-use photos from White Dwarf (the Exodite and Chaplain duel) and copyrighted photos taken from the internet (all the Agis Neugebauer ones) in your own work, unless you have contacted the owner of the model/photo and they have agreed they are happy for you to include it (don’t even bother trying with Games Workshop). If you intend to include your own or other peoples models/artwork later then you’d be better leaving gaps for the moment. Publishable fan supplements like Siege and Raiders need to include no models made by other companies at all, just GW models, conversions or scratch-builds – it’s the reason I’ve stuck to GW only components for my Exodites as I’ve been planning an Epic: Knights supplement featuring battles between Exodites, Imperial Knights and Slaanesh Knights. I should dig the Exodite army list I mostly wrote and post it up at some point, but real life and masters work keeps getting in the way.

Sorry to be quite critical!
Quote:
I have each one of the unreleased models from GW that they had on mail order in 2003 if anyone knows of a good mold maker.

It would be nice, hypothetically speaking, were something like that to be already in progress with someone. If, hypothetically speaking it were, the other hypothetical person might be too busy to do so immediately, but sometime this summer the Exodite worlds might hopefully be very happy :)


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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Frontier need playtester
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Hi GlynG.

First off, I must say your collection is beautiful. I saw that photo you had of your vast collection and was amazed you could amass so many. You are to blame since I realized that my Exodites could come out of the box and make a run at the battlefield.

I didn't recognize the country abbreviation, are you in the UK and part of that community?

GlynG wrote:
How much Epic Armageddon have you actually played?

PM me, I'll give you my full resume :). Play several games a year, and travel around to Epic Tournaments.

Here's my "Players Choice" and "Best Painted" Imperial Guard from Adepticon 2011
Image

With scratch built dropships in the hangers.
Image

GlynG wrote:
It’s good that you have the enthusiasm and interest to put something like this together but the list you’ve posted breaks many conventions for epic army lists and unit profiles and it needs a lot of work as it’s currently overpowered in many ways.


O.K. Where can I find said conventions? Point taken on the overpowered bit, I'll tweek the numbers down since I did factor in the effort someone would have to put into building this army. Perhaps too much of a reward.

I am actually a purist and all of my armies are straight out of the main book and Swordwind. I can toss complaints about the experimental lists being overpowered. Truthfully, after looking through the Epic Compendium and seeing a lot of the ridiculous units in there, I bumped the stats for draft 0.1. This is still a very rough draft, nothing is set in stone here.

GlynG wrote:
Are you aware there are already two Blood Axe lists in existence? (one including more stolen/traded imperial vehicles than the other). It would be better to use one of those than writing a new one. Have a look in the draft Ork compendium for the existing lists.


I did not. I have a paper copy of a Blood Axe list that someone posted on the Specialist game site in 2005(?) and I just tossed in it in there. The list was straight forward, and it had gone missing from the community. I didn't see any complete lists for orks outside the main book and feral Orks.

My primary goal was to bring the units first presented in White Dwarf 126 (Eldar Knights and Imperial Knights) back to the game.

GlynG wrote:
45cm for a flying dinosaur is completely insane, that’s the fastest in the game! A Land Speeder can travel at speeds up to 350 kilometres per hour which translates to a move of 35cm in epic. A flying dinosaur would be a lot slower than that and should have a movement of 20cm or 25cm not 45cm.


Seems like a sound argument. I was seeking to come up with a different kind of unit since the original Eldar have Jetbikes already. Why would you want a slow Jetbike as an Eldar player? There was a lack of scouts in the rough draft list, so I tweeked that without toning down the combat effectiness.

GlynG wrote:
Exodites would definitely not have an Avatar – only craftworlds do.


Ok, I'll buy that. I didn't want to loose that unit since it seems like a universal benefit for the Eldar list (like the Ork Warboss, or the Imperial Guard Commissar) but seems folks don't like it.

GlynG wrote:
You should loose the Biel-tann and Imperial Knight allies too, I understand Biel-tann and Saim-hann have background links to the Exodites (though I seriously doubt the Imperial Knights would), but Epic tournament army lists are focussed on a particular race/army and should not include allies with the exception of titans or aircraft.


Hm, that argument i have to say sounds contradictory. If the Imperials can ally with Navy and Titans, why can't another race do the same? Another reason is more practical: there are no other units to replace them with in the list. Titans, spacecraft and aircraft don't 'feel' like the belong in an Exodite list. I drafted one copy where Eldar Knights were the only thing you could spend your 1/3 quota on, but the more I wrote test lists, the less I liked it.

Again, go back to the fluff in White Dwarf 126 (June1990) and you'll see why Eldar and Imperial Knights would fight in a small group with each other. It is important that you cannot select upgrades! I think it adds to the Fluff of these two societies who share many traits in culture and military and skirmish quite often would also develop temporary debts of honor that require repayment. This situation is Rare! However, I did want players to be free to try fielding both race knight types.

The Deeper reason is that in the fluff I drafted, the entire reason why the Eldar Exodites allowed the Mon'kai to exist on their world is to fight the impending invasion of Tyranids. Why else would they? The Mon'kai were foreseen as the untrusted ally that would be forced to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Exodites against the Tyranid hordes. Or at least, that's what the Farseer Geronimo lead me to believe...

Besides, I think the Adepts of mars produce industrial strength bug spray, and it comes in very handy for elves that live in the tropics.

GlynG wrote:
It’s also really bad practice ... unless you have contacted the owner of the model/photo


Anyone work with copyright law out there in internet land? I think as long as 1. You do not seek profit from said photo and 2. footnote your source with credit to the photographer and 3. the photo is made available in the public domain (published electronically) it can be used. 1. I am sharing my material without any compensation, 2. I taged photos from their source where I could (I didn't continue to credit every photo from the same website toward the end) 3. All photos were published to the public.

All being said, I agree 100% that non-oringal artwork does not belong in a finished suppliment, I only seek to have "place holders" until I can come up with something. The art was an afterthought because, personally, I HATE reading home-made rules that are just typed up in Word. I have to read military standard message traffic all the time, when I spend time on my hobby I want to use the left side of my brain too. Personal prefrence.

GlynG wrote:
components for my Exodites as I’ve been planning an Epic: Knights supplement featuring battles between Exodites, Imperial Knights and Slaanesh Knights. I should dig the Exodite army list I mostly wrote and post it up at some point, but real life and masters work keeps getting in the way.


I totally understand. I had two combat tours and an overseas tour getting in my way :( Lets just say that now I'm hurt and flying a desk, I have an opportunity to do something for the hobby community.

There was a post about Exodites from a member of the SoCal Epic Group I'm in, and no working model out in the EA community when I checked. I googled and searched to see if there was anything being drafted out there, and no response. "See a need, fill a need" someone told me.

That supplement idea sounds great. I hope there is enough room for all of us to play in the same sand box? I am new to the online community, so I don't have the etiquette and pecking order straight yet.

I also have ZERO interest in Chaos. I was rather disappointed when GW made the Slaneesh Knights. I always liked the Horus Heresy (30K?) Era where Imperial Knight households fought on both sides for a thousand years with families split in allegiance between the Emperor and Horus. Like I said, my focus was on the 1990 out of print Knights from the Exodite Worlds talked about in the Adeptus Titantics Era fluff. Chaos Knights and Knights of Mars are a totally different bag of beans, IMHO.

GlynG wrote:
It would be nice, hypothetically speaking, were something like that to be already in progress with someone. If, hypothetically speaking it were, the other hypothetical person might be too busy to do so immediately, but sometime this summer the Exodite worlds might hopefully be very happy :)


Wonderful! I spent too many years learning useless things (like Engineering) and my trade skills are a bit lacking. I would love to learn new things and be as helpful as I can in any way. Sadly, they employ me to destroy more things than build them, so I consider it therapeutic time.

Cheers all!

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Frontier need playtester
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Here's a crazy idea spawned by reading the first 20 pages of Promethean Sun, how about making this army the Eldar equivalent of the Baran Siegemasters. They are only ever going to fight in the jungles of their maiden worlds, why not make that happen in game by letting the Exodite player buy sections of 'fortified' Jungle features, for example Razorvines(Razorwire) or Thick Jungle(Bunkers).

Everythng I've read so far indicates they use the jungle as much as a weapon as they do their reptile mounts. I don't want to give out too many spoilers though.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Frontier need playtester
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:02 am 
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So that's what the Vultures looks like! ::) ;D

Dropship Pilot wrote:
I am actually a purist and all of my armies are straight out of the main book and Swordwind.

I thought I talked you into the NetEA lists!?!? ;)

I think we should just dropping elsmore's army into Silicon. ::)

viewtopic.php?f=119&t=18852


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 Post subject: Frontier version 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:41 am 
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Hello again all. Had a few sick days to finish up some updates and edits. Version 1.0 for your viewing pleasure.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... h&hl=en_US

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Frontier need playtester
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:44 am 
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Hey Jerk :P !!!

You never responded to my PM and I lost your email!!!!

We need to play again soon!


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 Post subject: out of town!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:43 pm 
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So sorry! I was away getting married... Epic had to take a back seat to my bride...

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Frontier need playtester
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:56 pm 
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Hi Capt Senior,

CaptainSenioris wrote:
Here's a crazy idea spawned by reading the first 20 pages of Promethean Sun, how about making this army the Eldar equivalent of the Baran Siegemasters.


Saw your message. Very interesting idea. Obviously I'm not current on the latest Black Library publication. I should look to see who the author is since the book series seems to range widely from hit (_LEGION_: best Heresy book yet) to miss (_Furious_Abyss _). But that is a debate left for another forum.

Your idea is original; I have problems wrapping my head around the playability in Epic Tournaments however. Siege Masters are basically an extension of the 2nd ed siege rules combined with a limited Imperial Guard list (probably stuck some poor chap in the modeling department and said "Oy! You think are good enough to model space marines do ya? Make yer self some epic Imperial Guard first, and if you survive, we'll promote ya to a real department") Like all fringe lists in the Warhammer universe, the parent IG list is general and strong, and the siege is limited and focused.

In my imagination, Eldar units have always been styled after 'the death lotus'. Deadly, fast but fragile. A siege army by definition is resilient. I know, this is probably a stupid point since we are arguing about elves riding dinosaurs (beware geek logic) but the more I try to formalize a set of siege rules with defined defense lines and layered bunkers and crossfire (I spent a summer with the Marines at Quantico, Ooh Rah!) the model of World War One trench warfare breaks down quickly.

Your idea has great merit for originality and probably would be viable in 40k! If you’d like, you can draft it and see how it plays out.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Frontier need playtester
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:47 am 
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I'm no rules writer, but my thought was more along lines of buy more jungle & dangerous terrain for use in defense rather than eldar sitting in trenches. I still need to finish the book, if I read anything worth passing on I'll post it up, it may be a while though as I'm taking great care not to damage the book.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Frontier need playtester
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:40 am 
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Just a quick update, I got a chance to do more writing during my travels, and I updated the file link and some images. I dropped the Ork list for simplicity (much to my sadness) and am going to try to focus just on the two races who field Knights.

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