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[Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:32 pm 
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I normal play with 4 Guardian Hosts (+upgrades), 1 formation of Falcons (incl. 2 Firestorms), 2 Storm Serpents, Revenants & Raider (Wraithgate & Avatar)

And have been rather successful. Have tried this list out at a one day tournament (as a BT list) and all that I really felt that I missed was the supreme commander.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:35 pm 
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(Chroma @ Aug. 22 2007,12:18)
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(Markconz @ Aug. 22 2007,13:01)
QUOTE
@Tim - Biel Tan could take minimal guardians and lots of troupes too if they really wanted to do a tank heavy army. No reason for Ulthwe to be limited any more than Biel Tan here I think.

That's exactly the reason why Ulthw? needs a "downgrade".

Both Biel-Tan and Ulthw? could take a "minimum cost" Warhost army with maxed-out tank Troupes, and they'd both cost exactly the same amount of points.

Yet Ulthw? would have SR5 and, therefore, be better.

But Biel Tan get Void Spinners and an 8 strong host or two if they want which can significantly help a tank heavy force. It's not like it's all Ulthwe advantage.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:46 pm 
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(Markconz @ Aug. 22 2007,15:35)
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But Biel Tan get Void Spinners and an 8 strong host or two if they want which can significantly help a tank heavy force. It's not like it's all Ulthwe advantage.

For a player who likes Aspect Warriors but finds them too expensive & vunerable for his taste. The loss of an 8 strong warhost is not a problem and I don't use a great deal of artillery in my armies anyway.

So these are not drawbacks for me.

And as Soren has said I get a benefit for not using things that I wouldn't anyway and the only thing that I miss from a BT list is a supreme commander.

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:00 pm 
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I normal play with 4 Guardian Hosts (+upgrades), 1 formation of Falcons (incl. 2 Firestorms), 2 Storm Serpents, Revenants & Raider (Wraithgate & Avatar)


That is a good list, but do you want to every ulthwe army look like that? (ie, guardians with storm serpents)

I don't really see reasons behind this limitation. It is not fluffy, it decreases tactical possibilities for some players. Biel tan has it's own advantages and if one kind of list (which doesn't use things what BT is good at) is worse than ulthw?'s version is so big deal. Speed freaks have some advantages compared to orginal orks and so what, orks have their own.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:28 pm 
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The limitation will probably force a player to have at least three Guardian formations thus having a strong guardian presence.

I do not see this as forcing a player to have a single type of army for Ulthwe as others will use Wave Serpents or the guardians as a stront base.

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:27 pm 
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Also one thing differ from previous list:
Seer council is now 100pts (previous 50).
Why so?

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:38 pm 
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(Charad @ Aug. 22 2007,21:27)
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Also one thing differ from previous list:
Seer council is now 100pts (previous 50).
Why so?

Because I reckon that +2MWFF attacks, +1MWCC attack, reinforced armour and supreme commander are worth more than 50 points and a Farseer.

Supreme commander alone is worth 50 points in most armies.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:46 pm 
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(Chroma @ Aug. 22 2007,22:38)
QUOTE

(Charad @ Aug. 22 2007,21:27)
QUOTE
Also one thing differ from previous list:
Seer council is now 100pts (previous 50).
Why so?

Because I reckon that +2MWFF attacks, +1MWCC attack, reinforced armour and supreme commander are worth more than 50 points and a Farseer.

Supreme commander alone is worth 50 points in most armies.

I agree on that change at least.  :)

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:43 am 
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True, but still some armies get that free. I agree that council is extremely good unit, but it is upgarade to guardian formation and maybe 75pts could be enough, and farseers have commander already.

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Soren
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:34 am 
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Man Charad, Marines pay 100 pts for their supreme commander with far less abilities and a third of MW attack???. Even the armor save of the council is better.

And you quarrel about lousy 25 points????  :angry:




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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:01 am 
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I don't mind the 100pt cost for a seer council, but this does tend to be a unit that is placed at the back of the army to try and protect it & its points.

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Soren
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:06 am 
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Like any Supreme Commander.

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:50 am 
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Yes, but marines have maybe a bit too expensive supreme commander.

Yep, I quarrel, because I personally don't like these 'updates' to pretty fine and solid list. I would pay (not happily but I would) that 100pts too for a council, because SC is so important to elite army with many units having ini 2+.

That troupe limit is what I have biggest issues with. Why should ulthwe have less everything else than other craftworlds? It really doesn't affect may of your lists, but why make that kind of limitation, if it doesn't change some players lists, but radically limit others and really have nothing to do with SR5.

I know newest list is playable and very good but I don't like limiting everything too much. (one reason I never started siegemasters, lists were pretty same everytime)

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Soren
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:01 am 
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Sorry I have do disagree.

First of all, in my opinion every army should pay the price foa a supreme commander like marines do. The SC ability is important and noone should get it without paying for it a considerable price.

Second of all List designing is about adding some features to lists by limitating some others. this generates  interesting armies and makes balancing easier. Simply allowing all formations and adding some is not designing, it?s maximizing without thinking about consequences.

Third of all Ulthwe get one point SR absolutely free, they get really cool Guardian units as an option without a MUST and a great Seer Council if you are willing to take some risk (if you are not willing it?s your decision, not the fault of the list). Without the limitation now in the list they are simply better Biel Tan. If you are not taking the 8 stand aspect host, you are much better with Ulthwe, because there are no limitations but a major benefit of SR and better guardians. There is something wrong behind this, at least my opinion.

So simple and easy:

Do you want a 8 Aspect host, take Biel Tan
Else take Ulthwe because of the goodies you get for free




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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:14 am 
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Black guardians can't have wguards or wlords, and that limits their usage a bit. (justified by increased ini)
And normal guardians are the same.

Biel tan have void spinners, which just are best eldar artillery around!  Those 8 aspect formations are great, I see no reason why not use them.

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