Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Firestorms
1. Reduce AT value by 1 (so 2 x AP5+/AT6+/AA4+). 38%  38%  [ 8 ]
2. 0-2 replace Fire Prisms, and free upgrades in Shields. 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
3. 0-2 replace Fire Prisms, and free/25/50 upgrade in Shields. 10%  10%  [ 2 ]
4. 0-2 for 75 each, and free/25/50 upgrade in Shields. 33%  33%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 21

Firestorms

 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:54 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:59 pm
Posts: 1212
Location: Finland
Yep, other NS ain't worth a thing.

_________________
Rats Keep Running...

Dark Eldar Dracon


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:21 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4893
Location: North Yorkshire
Well I'm a bit behind the times. I don't normally play Eldar that much nowerdays, but my battles against themhave not led to the conclusion that Firestorms are too over powered. Yes they are nasty and a formation of three should not really be allowed, but they are just something that you have to handle. Can we not leave them along and work with the changes to their allocation as set out in the previous thread and reflected in the SH list v6.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:00 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Tiny-Tim @ Aug. 21 2007,08:21)
QUOTE
Can we not leave them along and work with the changes to their allocation as set out in the previous thread and reflected in the SH list v6.

At 50 points each with no stat mods? No definitely not.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:11 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand
Ok in 1.3 Handbook I have stuck in:

0-1 for free in Shields (because I believe from what Chroma said Sotec is thinking it...).
and 0-2 for 75 points each in Swords.

Note these are not definite and fixed (but ok to test) and I'm leaving this open for further discussion and debate.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:17 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Markconz @ Aug. 21 2007,23:11)
QUOTE
and 0-2 for 75 points each in Swords.

Do you really think Fire Storms are worth more than Fire Prisms?  75 points vs 65 points?

I've never seen them as that overwhelming.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:22 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Chroma @ Aug. 21 2007,22:17)
QUOTE
Do you really think Fire Storms are worth more than Fire Prisms?  75 points vs 65 points?

Probably yes.

But obviously further feedback on it all is required.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:50 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 694
Location: Austria
Hehe, in my last battle the Eldar Player had 2 times 2 Firestorms in his Armored formations. Packed with a Squadron of Nightwings it?s needless to say that none of my Air Assaults ever reached its target.

YES, they are good as Hell. Compared with a Hydra or an Hunter they are way too cheap and to numerous, but only my 0,002 cents

Soren





_________________
Attrition is the proof of absence of Strategy


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:48 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:36 pm
Posts: 653
Well, Soren, would you have fared any better in the presence of 4 T-Bolts and 4 Hydras?

Essentially, you were facing 500Pts of anti-air capability, not being able to air assault into that should be expected.

The "Shields" formation is quite brittle, they have an ugly tendency to stay broken, same as those formations of 3 Hydras that coincidentally no one is taking hereabouts as they are so easy to take out. The speed of the "Swords" formation usually has them zipping about, not necessarily taking their AA umbrella where other assets benefit from it. It?s not as easy as you make it sound.

While I agree that FS are a somewhat overpowered I caution against nerfing stats and upping costs and reducing availability all at once.

I?d also like to add that straight comparisons with the Hydra are problematic: IG can (and do!) add a Hydra to all their companies, and are also in a much better position to weather the losses when enemy aircraft strike.

Eldar can?t.

And that restriction to 0-1 in the Shields formation is the mother of all nerfs. That formation is useless, folks. It sucks as artillery and sucks as AA. I?d hate to see that one finalized.

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:52 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Irondeath @ Aug. 29 2007,11:48)
QUOTE
And that restriction to 0-1 in the Shields formation is the mother of all nerfs. That formation is useless, folks. It sucks as artillery and sucks as AA. I?d hate to see that one finalized.

I agree, but Sotec is army champ for now...

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:58 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand
(Checks)... ah yes so it is. Cheers Hena.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:01 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:36 pm
Posts: 653
*breathes sigh of relief*

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Not sure I agree with the issue as presented. As a regular Eldar player, I always take two Falcons/2FS formations to provide AA cover. You are correct that this is a no-brainer, mainly because, apart from Nightwings, other AA is ineffective.

Shields of Vaul was added because of the desire to remove AA from FirePrisms, and adds the potential for cheaper AA cover - but as several have noted it is horribly fragile. Hydras (and even Ork) AA is much more robust both because of the size of the formations and the ability to add it to virtually anything. Combinations with NS suck both ways as IronDeath says.

My AA is regularly suppressed or completely shut down end of turn 1 - mid turn 2 through artillery, air-strikes or long range potting to the point that you need three or sometimes four such formations to stand some chance against an air-heavy opponent. But at 450 + points the pair (SoV & SHoV) two such pairs represents about 1/3 the 3000 point army spent on AA. (and Soren's example is actually 800 points not 500 assuming 2x SoV). IronDeath is also right to point out that the SoV formation has a dual role and often fails to perform either satisfactorily - it really is not as clear cut as described.

So although obviously biased, I am with Tim here - it should be left alone for now. As with other developments that were initally thought excessive, I believe opponents will soon learn how to take the sting out of formations containing Firestorms.

I have not voted as there is no "Abstain" option

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:57 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Ginger @ Aug. 29 2007,15:02)
QUOTE
As a regular Eldar player...

I have not voted as there is no "Abstain" option

Allow me to be a little cynical about a number of eldar players arguing 'hydras with 6 stat boosts for no extra points are ok'. ??? I think I can see how Swordwind ended up so overpowered first time around...  should have payed more attention then...  :D

I have almost 15K of painted Biel-Tan myself by the way...

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:04 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 694
Location: Austria

(Irondeath @ Aug. 29 2007,12:48)
QUOTE
Well, Soren, would you have fared any better in the presence of 4 T-Bolts and 4 Hydras?

Essentially, you were facing 500Pts of anti-air capability, not being able to air assault into that should be expected.

The "Shields" formation is quite brittle, they have an ugly tendency to stay broken, same as those formations of 3 Hydras that coincidentally no one is taking hereabouts as they are so easy to take out. The speed of the "Swords" formation usually has them zipping about, not necessarily taking their AA umbrella where other assets benefit from it. It?s not as easy as you make it sound.

While I agree that FS are a somewhat overpowered I caution against nerfing stats and upping costs and reducing availability all at once.

I?d also like to add that straight comparisons with the Hydra are problematic: IG can (and do!) add a Hydra to all their companies, and are also in a much better position to weather the losses when enemy aircraft strike.

Eldar can?t.

And that restriction to 0-1 in the Shields formation is the mother of all nerfs. That formation is useless, folks. It sucks as artillery and sucks as AA. I?d hate to see that one finalized.

At least T-bolts only get off 1 shot each at 30 cm WITHOUT lance and Hydras only hit at 5+.
T-Bolts are not the No Brainers like Nightwings and can be shot at by the Thawk in return (at 15cm) which is not the case for Nightwing attacks.
Yes , it?s possible to Air Assault there.  (very often done against LatD and IG)

To summarize it, AA is only half of the value for IG for the same point cost. (each 500 pts) I know the bachground for Eldar forces, but at least they should get the same AA for the same points than any other army.

I also know, comparing units from lists is pretty difficult, but this case is very obvious to me.


And to be honest It is that easy. It makes me always feel like a fool even to start a game against Eldar forces with a SM list.  Else my Eldar opponent is a tactical genius, or I get no glue to break this umbrella because of tactical deficits (bot cases are true I fear  :blush: ) Next time I field a Minervan Tank company, let?s have a look, maybe this works better against Eldar forces  :devil:

_________________
Attrition is the proof of absence of Strategy


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net