Warp Spiders could lose FS in their notes and get it on their weapons instead.

Eldar as a whole are not currently underpowered, quite the contrary. Nerfing their best Aspect is probably a good move, or at least trialing it.

_________________
"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Infiltrate on HBs is certainly an option that should be considered.
I would also like to try giving them 20cm movement, they are supposed to be fast after all. This would do much to redress the imbalance between HB and WS assaults.

Yeah but that might set an really bad precedent
-first of all, AFAIK all INF is 15cm (there might be some weirdo 10cm someone out there)
-The speed you refer to would be in the short sprints when engaging (e.g. assault), not long distance marathon running
-Infiltrator covers the above nicely as well, no?
-LoM has a point in removing the Warp Spider First Strike from the unit and add it to their shooting, thus giving each of these Aspects a unique set of abilities in the end. Eldar fluff is all about the specialization after all too!

All must be totally taken with more than a grain of salt. That's HUGE theory-hammer there. The synergies of the various Eldar units are not my forte'

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Well, there are quite a lot of 20cm infantry units in different lists, some with infiltrate like Tyranids. !5cm is certainly the norm, but other speeds are not uncommon.

The extra speed would give them a subtly different niche from the other Aspects that can be carried in a Vampire by allowing them greater reach while on foot. It would also reflect their very high mobility from a 'fluff' perspective and would allow them to be combined with WS, something that cannot be done at the moment even if they had Infiltrate.

While Infiltrate would certainly help HBs to enter an assault, 20cm consolidation would make them more usefull post-assault. It would also reduce their reliance on transport, making them more attractive from a cost perspective without actually reducing their cost.

I am generally opposed to changing pricing where at all possible, because of the way the formation prices interact in the lists. So would not recommend reducing the HBs costs. If all else fails (or is rejected), I agree we may be forced to accept that they will tend to be left at home because the other choices are so much more versatile.

As to the Warp Spiders, I agree with moving First Strike to the Warp Spider weapon. This provides a subtle nerf to the formation by moving the Exarch / Autarch EA+1 to the normal round of assault, which makes WS slightly less effective while not changing any other stats.

Just as a point of correction, the EUK list doesn't only change the HB and FD exarch weapons:
- Howling Banshee gets First Strike
- Dire Avenger gets MW
- Fire Dragon gets MW
- Shining Spear gets Lance

The remaining four get their "normal" extra attack, with the warp spider's being first strike as a result.

--

I think it's pretty clear that there will always be some aspects (and exarchs) that are suboptimal, and not always just because of their specific stats but because when you are limited by points, you have to make choices and need to take units that fill certain roles or are more flexible. Howling Banshees are just a niche unit. If we could go back in time to change hit allocation and include a power weapon rule in the rulebook it might make sense for the banshees. But IMO it's not worth inventing these special rules now to "fix" the unit, because they will never be "fixed" (or if they are, then something else will be broken instead). Giving the exarch first strike is worth doing IMO just because it is annoying that they don't have it. It makes the list, and the way they play, feel strange. You could also test Infiltrators. Doing those two things would IMO make them really good in their niche, but it won't make their niche any less "nichey" and thus I won't pick them any more often than I already do. By now I have just accepted that and moved on, I use them occasionally as a cool unit

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

The infiltration rule is one which I remain firmly opposed to. It doesn't fit with the unit's role and is not, in my view, a suitable solution to the problems which they have.

I've made my mind up that it's time to just leave Howling Banshees as they are. They're not ideal, but no agreement has been reached in all the years I've been a member here regarding how to fix them, and the same old debates just keep being recycled.

_________________

@Irisado: Have you managed to play a game in the last couple years?

_________________
"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Change the movement to 17cm. That will give them an edge.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Can you clarify?

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Nope, but since the debate hasn't changed in the last couple of years at least, that's not relevant. The arguments being made here about Howling Banshees in particular are the same ones being put forward since I last played, with the possible exception of Ginger's proposed assassin rule, which I'm not in favour of, because I don't want to see more special rules added to the game.

jimmyzimms: To clarify, Howling Banshees are not infiltrators, because they're not the type of unit that could slip through enemy zones of control. They're not a terribly subtle unit. Also, in terms of epic, are they really so mobile that they could double their speed? They don't have a jet pack or anything like that. It just doesn't fit as a rule in my opinion.

_________________

regarding infiltrate, i will point out that things like Defilers and juggernauts of Khorne have infiltrate; I don't think being subtle is a prerequisite of infiltrating!

On the face of it, that strikes me as curious to say the least, but I don't play Black Legion, so I can't comment on the rules for that list. At least, as far as Khorne Juggernaughts are concerned, they're frenzied Khorne warriors on a mechanical steed, so the doubling of the speed at least makes sense.

_________________

yeah Inflitrate does not mean stealth. it's the ability to charge into combat bypassing defenders through training, technology, speed, or even good old sneakiness. Your point about the Juggernaughts seems on the surface curious as you can see the abstraction of the ability there but not how that same abstraction elegantly exhibits the swiftness of the HB and their shock abilities of the msak when getting into close combat?

You're probably right though (and far wiser than I) to just let the topic be and say they're imperfect but good enough! Thanks for clarifying though,: much appreciated

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

No, to be fair, I see where you're coming from with your argument. It's not some kind of completely off base idea for Epic. It's just that I don't see Howling Banshees having the sheer brute force to operate in that way. Yes, they can stun, but they'd stun, and then take out the unit they have stunned, not move on to engage others.

_________________

Though a "fluffyphobe", I thought the HBs were supposed to be acrobatically mobile, which together with the paralysing howl from the mask, allowed them to pass easily among the enemy. Have I overstated things?

The idea of slightly exaggerating some feature for game purposes is done in many areas for the sake of improving the balance of units internally and externally.