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Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
MC23
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:56 pm 
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I expect I'll have to make a complete overhaul on the Saim Hann list once the review really gets in gear.  The things that looks good to be going forward on will be the dropping of Spirit Stones, and Jet Bike saves being reduces to 5+ Save. Please start testing with this much now so we can have a greater feel for the impact these changes will have.

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jfrazell
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:36 pm 
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In my one game using the proposed BT changes (using a BT list to simulate a proper SH list), the jet bikes were strongly impacted vs. Tau by the 5+ save and the 15cm consolidate.  We didn't test the efficacy of actual CC impact from the jumpack conversion (Tau don't CC heh heh).  We may run another game this week.

One thing that was immediately apparent, the worth of Vipers increased substantially in comparison.  Vipers still have the base 4+ save, plus have the option of being able to fire without getting into FF.  

Given thought to these items?:
*reduce initiative to that in line with BT-ie jetbikes/viper formations are init. 2, not 1 (at least in the experimental rules set I had).

*potential adjustment in the windrider host jetbike/viper formation size to a maximum of
either 9 mixed or may haps 11 with jet bikes only (to represent a true biker horde).

*Much as I love my guardian formations, is there an understanding to the difference between this formation and the BT version?

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MC23
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:38 am 
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(jfrazell @ Sep. 11 2006,08:36)
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In my one game using the proposed BT changes (using a BT list to simulate a proper SH list), the jet bikes were strongly impacted vs. Tau by the 5+ save and the 15cm consolidate. ?We didn't test the efficacy of actual CC impact from the jumpack conversion (Tau don't CC heh heh). ?We may run another game this week.

One thing that was immediately apparent, the worth of Vipers increased substantially in comparison. ?Vipers still have the base 4+ save, plus have the option of being able to fire without getting into FF. ?

Given thought to these items?:
*reduce initiative to that in line with BT-ie jetbikes/viper formations are init. 2, not 1 (at least in the experimental rules set I had).

I think we will be looking at Jetbike Hosts with a 2+ Initiative by the time I set out my first draft of the next Saim Hann list.
*potential adjustment in the windrider host jetbike/viper formation size to a maximum of
either 9 mixed or may haps 11 with jet bikes only (to represent a true biker horde).

I'm hoping with the new stats this will be possible.
*Much as I love my guardian formations, is there an understanding to the difference between this formation and the BT version?
I'm grappling with the current concept of Saim Hann being a forward force and it being a build anything Saim Hann can muster list.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:20 am 
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So far, I've played 6 games with SS loss, and save at 5+.

Overall the 5+ save has had quite a significant impact in 4 of those 6 games (in addition to the SS of course), and in the other games the jetbikes didn't see much action. Taking two thirds casualties from enemy hits, rather than half, seems to make a big difference to what you can get away with.  The 5+ save downgrade compounds with the effects of increases in failed activations from the SS change, and greater susceptability to becoming broken due to less ability to remove blast markers.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:52 am 
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Sounds like I should be using the Windrider hosts at 2+ initiative rather than 1+ then? In which case perhaps the addition of supreme commander needs to be seriously considered?

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jfrazell
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:49 pm 
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An autarch like figure might be considered. ?I've found the removal to spirit stones to be a real drag "pardon the pun" on getting my guys to activate with spare BM's hanging on.

edit: MC23, or MC if I can call you that heh heh, perhaps it might be good to start off with a reminder from you of the intent behind the main formations that are currently different than the BT list, and your theory on SH as a whole.  That way we can be guided in our comments, etc. with that appropriate philosophy.  

For instance, my take on SH is that they are fast-the Bandidos of the Eldar world.  Speed is their armor, and hence I won't run anything that doesn't boogey at least 25cm a phase (and am loath to employ even those slow moving war engines).  But what is the philosophy of the army champion?




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:55 pm 
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I'd say without Spirit Stones and with 5+ armor they will be much closer to being correct.  The only change I might make before playtesting them would be to the windrider formation to make the points even on a per-unit basis, i.e. no discounts as you get bigger - they're not Orks.

And the Hunter, of course.

Other than that, I'd test them as-is a few times before more adjustments.

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MC23
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:09 am 
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(Markconz @ Sep. 12 2006,03:52)
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Sounds like I should be using the Windrider hosts at 2+ initiative rather than 1+ then? In which case perhaps the addition of supreme commander needs to be seriously considered?

Definitely.

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MC23
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:28 am 
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(jfrazell @ Sep. 12 2006,07:49)
QUOTE
An autarch like figure might be considered. ?I've found the removal to spirit stones to be a real drag "pardon the pun" on getting my guys to activate with spare BM's hanging on.

edit: MC23, or MC if I can call you that heh heh, perhaps it might be good to start off with a reminder from you of the intent behind the main formations that are currently different than the BT list, and your theory on SH as a whole. ?That way we can be guided in our comments, etc. with that appropriate philosophy. ?

For instance, my take on SH is that they are fast-the Bandidos of the Eldar world. ?Speed is their armor, and hence I won't run anything that doesn't boogey at least 25cm a phase (and am loath to employ even those slow moving war engines). ?But what is the philosophy of the army champion?

Saim Hann are prone for speed and heavy Jetbike use. That much is core and will not change focus. On the other hand I would like to see the EPIC craftworld lists to be able to field any unit they would normally be able to. That doesn't mean that list would still be balanced taking a lot of choices that doesn't support it's focus, just that it is possible in some smaller way. People can take Beil-Tan with all Guardians and no Aspects if they like, it's just not the best way to field them.


Saim Hann's current list does not follow that as some units can never be taken. I would like to be able to include all units if possible but without undermining the on the go speed driven mentality that is Saim Hann.

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MC23
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:35 am 
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(nealhunt @ Sep. 12 2006,09:55)
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I'd say without Spirit Stones and with 5+ armor they will be much closer to being correct. ?The only change I might make before playtesting them would be to the windrider formation to make the points even on a per-unit basis, i.e. no discounts as you get bigger - they're not Orks.

And the Hunter, of course.

Other than that, I'd test them as-is a few times before more adjustments.

Pretty much agree.

For the time being we should simply use 0-1 Autarch on any Shining Spear for +75 to give the reroll needed with the reduced Initiative. Note this will be intended for either the Shining Spears as a Troupe or the additional Spears added to a Windrider Host. We can hammer out details as we go along.

The formation size might be tweaked but for now let's keep the same format with different pricing. Wild Riders and Farseer on Jetbike armor becomes 5+

WINDRIDER WARHOST: 225 points
A Windrider Warhost consists of one Wild Riders unit and five Jetbike units. Any number of Jetbike units in the formation may be replaced with Vypers at no additional points cost.

In addition the formation may include:
3 Jetbike units for +100 points or 6 Jetbike units for +200 points
3 Shining Spears units for +100 points
1 Farseer on Jetbike unit for +50 points

Point values might be high but we can see what effect the new rules have on bikes and go from there. Note I shifted where the Vyper swap takes place to create a limit on how many you can for the time being.

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Suvarov454
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:23 am 
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(MC23 @ Sep. 12 2006,19:35)
QUOTE
WINDRIDER WARHOST: 225 points
A Windrider Warhost consists of one Wild Riders unit and five Jetbike units. Any number of Jetbike units in the formation may be replaced with Vypers at no additional points cost.

In addition the formation may include:
3 Jetbike units for +100 points or 6 Jetbike units for +200 points
3 Shining Spears units for +100 points
1 Farseer on Jetbike unit for +50 points

Point values might be high but we can see what effect the new rules have on bikes and go from there. Note I shifted where the Vyper swap takes place to create a limit on how many you can for the time being.

Check me on this... you're saying that, for 525 points, a Saim Hann list can field 15 bike units (well, 1 WR, 3 SS, and 11 Bikes -- up to 5 of which can be Vypers)? ?Hmm... for 500 points the Orks can field 24 Scorchas. ?OK, with the 5+ armor on the jetbikes, I'm no longer deathly afraid of this formation. ?Oh, I'm still worried -- I expect to find the Vypers and Aspects up front to make their 4+ saves -- but not terrified.

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jfrazell
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:02 pm 
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(MC23 @ Sep. 13 2006,00:35)
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[quote]

For the time being we should simply use 0-1 Autarch on any Shining Spear for +75 to give the reroll needed with the reduced Initiative. Note this will be intended for either the Shining Spears as a Troupe or the additional Spears added to a Windrider Host. We can hammer out details as we go along.

The formation size might be tweaked but for now let's keep the same format with different pricing. Wild Riders and Farseer on Jetbike armor becomes 5+

WINDRIDER WARHOST: 225 points
A Windrider Warhost consists of one Wild Riders unit and five Jetbike units. Any number of Jetbike units in the formation may be replaced with Vypers at no additional points cost.

In addition the formation may include:
3 Jetbike units for +100 points or 6 Jetbike units for +200 points
3 Shining Spears units for +100 points
1 Farseer on Jetbike unit for +50 points

Point values might be high but we can see what effect the new rules have on bikes and go from there. Note I shifted where the Vyper swap takes place to create a limit on how many you can for the time being.

Will run with this and initiative of 2.

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MC23
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:17 pm 
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(jfrazell @ Sep. 13 2006,08:02)
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Will run with this and initiative of 2.

Thanks. And please keep in mind for me that this has two different issues to watch. Foremost is does this play well. This is going to be a great chance to play Jetbikes and see how they fare with these changes. Secondary will be their point values. If the formation turns out not to be viable then any point costs won't help that. At this point I am far more interested in whether it performs like a host should or not.

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Mohawk
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:39 am 
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how many "list-specific" units is "allowed"?

The reason for the question is that i find S-H a perfect list to bring the Rangers on Jetbikes back. It would be uncomlicated to convert models and would solve the issue with "groundpunders" in the list. Something like this:

Siam Hann Jetbike Rangers, 4-8 @ 45pts

Type / save / cc / ff
Inf / 5+ / 6+ / 4+

Ranger rifles / 30cm / AP5+ / -
Twin shuricen cat / (15cm) / small arms

Skimmer, scout (allowed to garrison), sniper
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Mephiston
 Post subject: Saim Hann Jetbikes and Review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:21 am 
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Think the sniper, skimmer, FF4 and 35cm charge would make 8 of these guys a really nasty assault formation!

I can hear the complaints allready!
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