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[Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

corey3750

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:22 pm

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It should stay as it is, where when an enemy unit has the portal in it's ZOC you can only come out of the portal on an engage action.

Despite the arguments presented here, there is one point that everyone always seems to forget. The game is not about precision, it is an abstract.

Units are not exactly where the miniature is. That's what a ZOC is, it's the area that the unit occupies as it's spread out or moves around. It's why scouts have a greater ZOC, their members range farther than normal squads do.

This is not 40k where you have each mini EXACTLY where the individual is, the mini only represents the approximate center of the area where the unit is, nothing more.

There is nothing at all wrong with the rule as it is. There is no free ride. If you choose to invest the resources to invest the webway, the Eldar have no choice but to assault you in order to get out. I think that's a fair trade as is.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:27 pm

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You're missing the point Corey; sometimes there is no phsyical space to fit the Eldar (Or potentially, Necron) miniatures on the board.

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corey3750

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:03 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 07 2007,10:27)

QUOTE

You're missing the point Corey; sometimes there is no phsyical space to fit the Eldar (Or potentially, Necron) miniatures on the board.

the fact that you say that means you aren't understanding what I am saying.

the lack of physical room due to miniatures is totally, and utterly IRRELEVANT.

As I said before, it's a game about abstraction. Just cause the miniatures are there, does not mean that the troops are standing around the gate, shoulder to shoulder, forming a wall and waiting to be mown down like grass to the first weapon that fires out of the portal.

They are spread out, hunkered down, and waiting to ambush whoever steps out.

You people are getting too hung up on the miniatures and losing sight of the way the game works. It's not broke, don't try to fix it. It's when you keep tinkering with stuff that doesn't need to be tinkered with, you wind up ruining a whole lot of other things.

Leave it alone, and move on to something important.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:06 pm

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You've still not answered the main question; What happens when there is physically no space to put your Eldar (Or Necron) miniatures on the table?

Apparently you believe that you just move your opponent's miniatures and make a space?

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corey3750

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:12 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 07 2007,11:06)

QUOTE

The physical location is not relevant. Move the others back, stick the Eldar on the outside of them, whatever. If they are hard up against the portal, the only option for assaulting them is going to be Close Combat, you can't avoid it. Unless they formation coming out is a group of Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions or Shining Spears aspect warriors they are going to be in a world of hurt anyway. Most Eldar don't do well in Close Combat.

Doing it to Necrons would be a bit more dangerous since they tend to be more assault oriented, but if what's coming through is just a normal Phalanx, the odds are still not really in their favor.

Either way, the entire thing is only an abstraction of combat. If you get too stuck on the miniatures themselves you will lose sight of that... in that case we'd all be better off going to play 40k.

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philipc68

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:08 am

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Since there is the precedent that units in transports (including even in war engine transports, as far as I can tell) can't disembark if there are > 2 enemy in contact, I'm inclined to say that gates can be totally blocked as well.

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Kagetora

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:39 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 06 2007,16:06)

QUOTE

I'll answer that question more firmly.

If there is no room to fit them on the table, then you don't get to put them on the table.

Too bad. Should have thought of that before you waited too long to bring units through the Portal.

There are numerous ways of dealing with that anyway.

--Don't choose the most forward Objective to replace with the Webway Portal.
--Guard the Portal yourself.
--Bring your Formations out BEFORE the enemy gets there.
--Liquefy the closely-packed enemy surrounding the gate with some Cobras or Void Spinners, THEN use the Gate.
--Assault the enemy guarding the Gate and drive them off, allowing your units to use the Gate again.

I don't think we need to be mucking around with stuff or making up extra rules for things because some people play badly with certain units/formations. Sorry. Stupid play should not be an excuse for rules changes.

Not saying anyone is stupid, mind you. Not at all. But I really fail to see a problem here.

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Chroma

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:29 am

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(Kagetora @ Nov. 10 2007,22:39)

QUOTE

Not saying anyone is stupid, mind you. ?Not at all. ?But I really fail to see a problem here.

The only problem is that the response to the situation is not specified in the rules.

Can I make a great big Wraithgate, 40mm by 40mm(maximum "base" size) and measure from anywhere on it? Can I just put my units in base contact with enemies "on" the "Gate an engage them?

This must never have come up in playtesting, so there's nothing to go on.

We want a fair *and* fun resolution, that's it. It's got nothing to do with stupidity or bad play. I agree that there are many "use another formation" solutions, we just want to nail this down and make it airtight... sorry for the panzees stuck in there... we'll blast open some breathing holes for you... eventually.

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Kagetora

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:52 am

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Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
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Well, if thats the only problem, then just nail down the size of the Wraithgate.

There IS an "official" model for it. Simply dictate the maximum size base that it can be on, and be done with it.

It should be fairly obvious to anyone who understands the rules that, if the gate is completely surrounded, nothing can move out of it. There is no room for an Engagement, and its not permissable to move over enemy units.

Does it make 100% real-life sense? Nope. But it does make 100% sense within the ruleset. Thats probably a bit more important.

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semajnollissor

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:36 am

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Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA

Personally, I think the "official" model for the gate is ugly and does not match the style of the rest of the eldar army. To limit the size of the wraithgate to the "official" model would be very restrictive to those of us who have made our own, as it is not bigger than a 40mm infatry base.

Though there obviously should be a max size limit, it should probably the same size limit as that placed on the other objectives (since that's ll the writhgate is - an objective). I suggest making the 60mm titan base the max size of the gate and any other objective.

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Ilushia

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:38 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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I might suggest that you can start placing from anywhere within some distance of the central point, to avoid (in the case of a fancy one where you can have models actually optop of it) it being blocked by a single squad standing dead center of the object. Since you can't move over enemies, and if you always measure from the center it's possible for a single squad of guys to hold off anything which would move through it (Or a single tank, or a single war engine, or even a landed aircraft potentially!) by giving a little bit of leeway (5cm is more then enough, I think) you can ensure that people have to actually park enough stuff there to make it physically impossible to fit them onto the board within that range without being ontop of eachother, without compromising the area of effect of their ZoC. A single model could still force an engagement, but unless it's quite large is unlikely to be able to prevent anything from leaving it at that point.

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Moscovian

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:02 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

Just make it blockable. Officiate it to the original model produced by GW. Anyone with a customized gate (like Sem or myself) can just abstract it. If x number of units are in BtB with the gate, then it is blocked. Simple. No moving models, no jumping over enemy units.

I understand the abstract, but I can also abstract that the troops are not just standing there WAITING. They've set up automatic weapons and grenade traps and barbed wire and all manner of nastiness to slow down the troops and hack them to bits as the come out. Or they've set up some sort of field inhibitor that prevents the gate from opening.

It's not like the Eldar player doesn't know where the gate is going to be. If it is closer to the middle of the board then he should consider sucking it up and placing less formations inside the Webway (or placing his gate where the blitz is).

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: [Wraithgates] Should they be blockable or not?

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:33 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
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Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA

My opinion:

The Wraithgate should be blockable, but the formation that is coming through it should be allowed to assault its way out.

1) Declare what the dimensions of the Wraithgate are based upon the miniature available from GW. These dimensions should drive how many enemy units are required to block the gate.
- 1A) People who have made their own Wrathgates should either convert what they have made to similar dimensions of the rules Wraithgate or declare that their (assumedly) larger gate is more easily blocked.
- 1B) Conversely, people who make larger wraithgates miniatures could force Eldar players to pay extra points for their less easily blocked wraithgate.
- 1C) The number of units that are required to block the Wraithgate make CC attacks against Eldar trying to assault out of the gate while any other enemy within 15cm of the center of the Wraithgate make FF attacks. The only exception to this is when the Eldar assault out with skimmers and force the blocking enemy to make FF attacks.
- 1D) Enemy War Engines (WE) should be allowed to block a Wraithgate, with 1 DC = 1 unit. Only half of the units needed to block a Wraithgate can come from a single WE. If the starting DC of a WE is in excess of this limit then "excess" DC of the WE may only make FF attacks when the Eldar assault. Keep in mind that WE do block LOF.

2) The Eldar player should be allowed to assault his way out of the gate if they pass their activation test.
- 2A) The Wraithgate rules limit only one formation may use the Wraithgate per activation, therefore the assault from the Eldar trying to use the Wraithgate is limited to just that one unit; commanders do not allow more than one formation to assault.
- 2B) The Wraithgate constricts movement through it, allowing only 1/2 the units in the Eldar formation to make CC/FF attacks. All of the enemy units that are blocking the gate may make CC/FF attacks. If there is more than one enemy formation blocking the Wraithgate then those formations are automatically considered intermingled.
- 2C) The other half of the Eldar formation that is not allowed to attack in CC/FF may not lend supporting fire, yet any enemy or Eldar on the board within 15cm of the center of the Wraithgate may lend supporting fire.
- 2D) While the Eldar assaulting through the gate may only have half of their units make CC/FF attacks all of the units in the formation are elegible to take hits from enemy CC/FF attacks.

3) The Assault rules should be used as normal
- 3A) If the Eldar lose then only the assaulting formation has to withdraw. The two move withdraw move is considered to have occured off table. The broken formation may attempt to rally off-board, with the -2 broken penalty but without the -1 enemy within 30cm penalty. If the formation fails to rally it is considered destroyed.
- 3B) If the Eldar win then proceed as normal, with the 5cm follow-up move measured from the center of the Wraithgate.
- 3C) If there is a tie then any remaining Eldar in excess of the "50% may fight" limit may counter-charge into locations vacated by destroyed enemy and fight in the second round.

If I were to write any special rules regarding the Eldar assaulting out of a blocked Wraithgate I would handle it along these lines. Is there anything I missed or got wrong?

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