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Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
baronpiero
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:27 pm 
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Gray DL, in the cadres thread
Missile pods are the main/only long range weapon crisis suits have. 45 seems OK. ?Again, 4+/4+ firepower seems too good. 5+/5+? Maybe the crisis suits could be compensated for the loss in firepower by giving them benefits from the other kinds of special gear/weapons that they can carry.


About the missile pod, the loaddout of crisis teams should be examined as a whole.


I tend to agree about the 45 cm range. IMO that's needed to give crisis the flexability they need.


Okay, here's two proposals, trying to sum-up recent ideas.


Proposal 1: with macro-weapons

Plasma rifles & fusion blasters - 15cm - MW4+
Missile pods - 45cm - AP5+/AT5+


Proposal 2: without macro-weapons

Fusion blasters - 15cm - AT4+
Plasma rifles - 30cm - AP4+
Missile Pod - 45cm - AP5+/AT5+


While this is a downgrade, cost may still be adjusted if needed.

Thoughts? ???
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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:53 am 
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Personally, I prefer option one. However, I would like to ask exactly what the role of the Crisis teams should be? Should they really be a all rounder, flexible unit? As far as I can see, this outlook could distract from other units in the list.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:20 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Jul. 29 2007,09:53)
QUOTE
Personally, I prefer option one. However, I would like to ask exactly what the role of the Crisis teams should be? Should they really be a all rounder, flexible unit? As far as I can see, this outlook could distract from other units in the list.

Though it may "overshadow" some other units at times, I do think the Crisis teams should be "all-rounders"; by definition, they're supposed to be able to handle any kind of "crisis" that comes up.  

They are flexible, highly experienced warriors, and shouldn't have too narrow a focus, IMHO.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:19 pm 
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I like option 1. Don't take out what little MW the list has please... And I agree with Hena on testing the vehicles before messing with the Crisis suits.
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Jstr19
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:36 am 
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I would be very willing to drop the MW attack. I hardly ever use it anyway. I would rather be able to destroy the enemy transports with a Moray then set down a 6 strong Crisis unit 30cm away put in 12 AP4+ shots and then jet pack away before my oponent can engage me.
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Honda
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:03 pm 
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I have more pointed questions. Is the formation broke? Not, "does it do what I think it should do?" Crisis suits have many different load outs, so that they can be the clean up hitter for any list.

The purpose of changing a list is not to see if you can change it, anyone can do that. the purpose of proposing changes is to address balance issue.

So I ask again. Are you seeing Crisis suits dominating games? Are people not taking them in their lists because they are too expensive for what they do? If the reason for change doesn't fall into either of those categories, then there is no reason for a change.

The list design isn't about opinions.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:39 pm 
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But, sometimes there is more than just 'is this broken'. If the Crisis unit functions in a way to put other units in the shade, then something is wrong. On the flip side of your post, are there any lists out there that dont take them? This may also point to issues if they are taken even in lists where the player doesnt like them so much. Is this any better than them not being taken by players that do like them, because they are not very good?

I have no problems with the Crisis stats as they are, but they seem to be very powerful. That on its own is not so bad as long as they dont overlap with other units.

My question is if the Crisis suits lack focus. Sometimes we can add character to a unit by taking something away. I dont want to do a lot to the unit at all, as I dont think that they are too bad. However, a very minor alteration may give them a focus, and allow other units to shine.

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Honda
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:08 pm 
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Well, as someone else pointed out, the suits got their name from being able to go to wherever there was a "crisis" and then dealing with it. They should be a strong unit and not get tailored to a specific role.

What I am not sure is being taken into consideration is how fragile they are. As they are currently modeled, they are a very close approximation to how they are defined in 40K.

Regarding the decision as to whether or not to "adjust" their values, that is your decision. I would be more inclined to fiddle with the list if it were producing anomalous results in extensive playtesting or we were just getting started.

But that really isn't where we are. The 4.4 list was very solid, not perfect, but very solid. No list is perfect and every list gathers people around it who would rather complain about what it is lacking.

You have done an admirable job of picking up a very contentious list midstream and guiding it to calmer waters. You should be commended for that.

However, there is also a time where a list needs to just sit and be played. I don't think the Tau list was ever given that opportunity. No sooner than a set of changes were implemented, then there seemed to be an immediate rush to change some more without observing the impact and long term (relatively speaking) effects of the changes. If I was going to complain about anything, it is about missing out on those quiet periods.

My two yen.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:28 pm 
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Thank you, and in general I agree with you.

I have to fight the urge and make small steps each time. I agree that 4.4 was a good, solid list that dies need a lot of changes.

You are also correct that there has been precious little 'play time', although whenever there is a respite, it seems that few people report on their experiences with the Tau.

Anyway, your voice joins that of Dobbsy and Hena, and my own, in requesting that Crisis changes are put on a back burner.

Therefore, I will make a note of it, but make no changes right now.

Thanks.

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baronpiero
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:24 pm 
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In my opinion the focus of the crisis suits is being the elites with initiative 1+. They retain initiative and rally very well.

Crisis suits should have a small cut in firepower as compared to the firewarriors to make for the higher initiative rating.

Crisis won't overlap that way.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:43 am 
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Are they to deal with any crisis or just ones the firewarriors can't handle? (I.e. armour.)

I do like the way their firepower intensifies the closer they get to the problem :)

Personally I take one formation for the commander, then go for tanks and pathfinders. They are damn good, its just the tanks are better. And cheaper ($).

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:22 pm 
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I do think that crisis suits re slightley overgunned. I would support keepint the MW4+ shot and the Ap4+ shot from the plasma guns but decrease the missile pods to Ap5+/AT5+ as in option 2. I think that this will tone them down enough without nerfing them which I think option 1 is in danger of doing. This will make them about on par with firewarriors in terms of firepower but at a much larger points cost. 24 Shots from 12 firewarriors at 300points, 19 shots from 6 Crisis suits at 375 and lets face it useually 425 or 475points.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:23 pm 
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Still better than Terminators with a character at 375. :)

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Crisis weapon loadout tweaks
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:34 pm 
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termies can teleport, are CC and FF3+ have reinforced armour, thick rear armour, they all have +1 macro attack in CC and their character can add a CC or FF macro attack. and with all these things come in 50 or 100 points cheaper than crisis suits. are you sure you want to continue this comparison.
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