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Broadsides
Steele
 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:01 am 
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Gents,
the Broadsides are getting more interestant than ever. Although I field them regardless of Infantry or LV Status. They are just cool models.
The stats are ok for me. Formation and cost is that bothers me. 3 are definitely too few. Think of the fragility of the Eldar Formations (pre Sotek). 6 are feeling allright, small reduction in AT Firepower but increase in Durability (BM-Wise). As a cost Margin I tend to put them in the 275 Points Field for the Basic Formation and 150 for the Upgrade.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:07 pm 
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Well, 5 Landspeeders are 200 points, 4-strong Sentinel Squadrons are 100, Kult of Speed (8) is 200 points, and an 8-strong big blitz brigade is 250.  I know, cross-army comparisons aren't worth much in GW games (wish they were, it's the one thing that SFB did right.  A 150-point ship is a 150-point ship there, no matter whose fleet it belongs to).

Attack Bikes move 30 and shoot 30 (giving a double+shoot range of 90), Landspeeders move 35 and shoot 15 (85), Sentinels move 20 and shoot 30 (70) (with the multilaser, the lascannon version would shoot 45 (85)), DefKoptas move 35 and shoot 30 (100), and Gunwagons move 30 and shoot 45 (105).  

Broadsides move 15 and shoot 75, giving a double&shoot range of 105.  Additionally, broadsides shoot very well on the move in Epic (AT4+ against targets in cover while moving at the double).  Broadsides are more powerful than Gunwagons, but are also more vulnerable due to their LV status (artillery loves to rain on broadsides), so I believe that they should have a similar points cost.

If playtesting shows that broadsides are too cheap at 250 for their effect, I can support your proposal, but I still think that a formation of 6 broadsides for 250, upgrade of 3 for 150 is where to start.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:36 pm 
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Cross-posting from the Marine/Tau batrep.


(nealhunt @ Sep 8, 2006, 22:57)
QUOTE
How much were Broadsides considered underpowered before?

With those stats, you've not quite cut the firepower in half. ?That's probably worht somethign in the -30% range for pricing. ?Then you've added +50% to the formation size. ?That should net out to the equivalent of a 10-20% increase in the formation's point value. ?If you drop the price 25-50 points on top of that, you're looking at something like a 25-30% difference overall.

I'm not making a case one way or the other. ?I'm just asking if common perception matches up with that large of a discrepancy


My reply (that I should have put here in the first place):
Doubling the firepower is only a 40% increase in combat power. ?Having 3/4ths the AT fire is about a 15% drop in combat power, plus 1.5x the AP fire (~25% increase [edit] if the AP fire is the only reason for broadsides, and as I feel that it's less than half the capabilities, maybe a 10% increase[/edit]), and another 1.5x increase in survivability, makes for a net of about +35% 20% more combat power. ?The 50-point drop in cost is about ?15% (yeah, I know it's more, but I've rounded in other places, too). ?That's a 50% 5% increase in combat power overall. ?That may be a bit much.  I firmly believe that Broadsides were at least 35% overcosted.


So, in the opinions of everyone else, just how overpriced were the old broadside formations?

[edit:  percentage calculations]




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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Broadsides
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:24 pm 
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Just to re-address this old thread?

I do think that part of the problem is that people are using these guys in the same way that they were before, which means that they wont last as long. The more that I think about the issue, the more that I am convinced that the current stats are heading in the correct direction, and LV is the way to go. Lets not go down this road again. Broadsides are LV. The description of them in the list will be changed to set them up as individually based. If the current stats are not representative of a single Broadside LV unit with Gun Drones, then I am happy to discuss this.

Can they take on an enemy force alone and survive? No. They do need the support of the rest of the force, which is the way that it should be.

So, where are we right now?

Broadside
Light Vehicle, Move: 15cm, Save: 4+, CC: 6+, FF: 5+
Twin-linked Railguns: 75cm AT2+
Smart Missile System: 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover
Notes: Walker, Reinforced Armour

Six units for 250 points.

Upgrades:
Gun Drones
Broadsides: Add an extra two units for an additional 125 points.

Also, we will drop the note that Broadsides occupy two slots in the Orca, since there is now only one of them rather than a group.

I am a little wary of adding to the current special rules for the list. However, adding the note that allows Drones to garrison with a garrisoning unit sounds plausible to me.

I am going to lock this thread for now. Discussion on their use and armament will reopen with the next epoch of the list.

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