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Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5643		 Page 1 of 15
Author:  Tactica [ Wed May 10, 2006 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
Hey all,

I keep trying to take the Manta, and I either avoid it in the end, or when I do take it - I really regret it due to the lack of payback I get out of it. Its always the BTS when taken, and it just doesn't seem to live up to the expectations - frankly, its not even getting close.

I've tried to planetfall with it on my opponnet's side Either looking for a good flanking manouvre or an overwhelming combat - and that's just a rediculous use of the thing more times than not. It requires a space ship investment, plus the units on board investment, plus a good DZ, plus some good dice, and you really don't want a higher strategy player coming to the board with his own ship and then forcing your points off table until turn 2 - which can really leave the other fraction of your army hanging. Then of course there's the issue of actually retaining the initiative and successfully activating on a 3+ now... (due to it having an init 2) That's a 33% chance of failure after a planetfall if you want to activate it before the opponent starts putting blast markers on it.

I've tried planetfalling on my side of the table to just keep it in reserve as it can be fired at from anywhere... that is 'better' but still a real pain due to the space ship investment I must make - even if I don't put anyone on board and just use it for a support platform, which btw - the firing is the real value to the tau here. Again, it has some of the same problems as noted above - who wants to hold 850 points in reserve for what might be 1/3 of the game?

I've tried to deploy it straight away and not worry about a space ship. Due to the Tau strategy, it typically gets shot at before I get to activate it. Always being seen means my activation attempts are almost always at 3+ instead of 2+.

That is one of the reasons I'd like to see the Manta become init 1. It should take an awful lot for the guys on board this prized craft to not follow orders too.

Its the BTS and it can be seen from anywhere so its the 'floating duck' for all long range shots. Shadowswords, pulsars, and 90cm orky weapons with blast templates always have fun with it. Blasts are of a particular problem as you don't want nearby units... even though enemy can see the Manta and can't see the nearby ground pounders - the blast markers can always 'stretch out' to affect the bystanders out of LOF.

No negatives aside, it can transport, it does have our best FF value in the game, is a sturdy firing platform, it does have staying power due to hit capacity armor/shield, but in the end - its main value is its weapon systems - hands down.

For my money, there are a host of things I'd rather purchase for 600 or 750 points in the Tau army. I never have the 850 to spend on this thing.

Two morays are more fragile and don't have the FF value or the transport capacity of the Moray - so those additions are worth something... but they are not worth 250 additional points in my assessment.

The FF value and transport capacity are almost a negligable value, but the additional staying power has the most merit. With the above init bump to 1 in mind, I see this Manta being worth another 75-100 points over and above the Morays and I'd even be willing to test it at 125 points over for a test - just to give the benefit of the doubt, of 675-725 for the init 1 manta. Its just not worth the 850 points.

As Tau supposively make pretty successful use of this craft in ground engagements, I don't see why we need to make it so unappealing to field in E:A. Besides, we initially just went with "what does a warlord cost" and planned to refine it in the future when the rest of the list was working.

If the board activity is any indicator - I think its time.

Cheers,
Author:  Xisor [ Wed May 10, 2006 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
From a speculative point of view: I agree pretty much entirely.

Initiative 1 seems pretty straightforward and IMO deserved. As it happens, I had actually assumed already that it was I1, I hadn't realised otherwise!

Points cost, I can't really contribute much, but I haven't heard of anyone claiming it's actually worth 850pts

Perhaps something is missing from the rules, but I believe that it should be capable of something *roughly* akin to an Air Assault in Epic. Okay, it's a very "Oh well maybe if..." sort of proposal, but it seems like that would be it's use. Jump in, dump three+ formations and say "KABLAM!"...

That said, this 'air assault analogue' may be more effort than it's worth, and something that perhaps no-one else desires.

Xisor
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed May 10, 2006 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
It doesn't attract the powergamer in me and with a starships avioics suite 1+ init is no more unfathnable than a warlord titans 1+.

Saying all that though why take a warlord? Why not 4 warhounds (copy the marines!). Such big bits of kit are always hard to justify.

Its critical is neither here nor there and not very worrying. The transport ability is 'nice'. Firepower wise its the equal of a warlord, hell, its better than a warlord. All those guns make it such a target that means you have to kill it or it can slaughter you. And it can always see you.

Its downside is survivability - no cover and no void/power shields. Does that knock down all the other bonuses?

I've never used one, but I did blow one up once with 2 deathstrikes and 9 artillary pieces before it activated.

An alternative could be to give it two more DC. It is frightening so people are going to try and kill it. Sorta turns it into a gamble of will they before I lay waste to them sorta thing. Not sure how games would go the cheaper it got, a Warlord you can at least avoid. Gets too cheap and its a case of you have to kill it otherwise it will toast you, most units in epic aren't like that.
Author:  clausewitz [ Wed May 10, 2006 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
My thoughts on the Manta...

For my money, there are a host of things I'd rather purchase for 600 or 750 points in the Tau army. I never have the 850 to spend on this thing.

True.. but, how often do your IG or SM take a Warlord?  Or do your Eldar take a Warlock?  I'll bet its a rare occurance in 2700 point games.  About the only 850 point titan I have seen with any kind of regularity at 2700 points is the Ork Great Gargant, and even it unusual as you can't then get any planes.

So is it really an issue at 2000-3000 points?

I would say that in larger games (4k+) it would be more common, mostly due the the far greater chance of facing large WE/titans of your opponents.

[Side-thought.  When planet-falling the Manta, transport a crisis formation with a shas'el/o.  Then you can retain and co-ordinate fire with the crisis 1+ init (and also possibly get a cross-fire!)]

I'd like to see the Manta become init 1.
Since the equivalent WE in other lists are init 1 I would tend to agree with this.

Blasts are of a particular problem as you don't want nearby units... even though enemy can see the Manta and can't see the nearby ground pounders - the blast markers can always 'stretch out' to affect the bystanders out of LOF.
That old chestnut :p

I would tend to say that this effect is not something that really needs a rule or points cost change to address.  There aren't that many barrage weapons that are direct fire (ok the orks generally have a few, but they dont have any IDF, so are something of an exception).

If you are facing barrage weapons (direct or IDF) its never a good idea to clump units or formations together.  The fact that the Manta can allow the occasional non-IDF weapon to hit things out of LOS is just one of those things. (IMO)

With the above init bump to 1 in mind, I see this Manta being worth another 75-100 points over and above the Morays and I'd even be willing to test it at 125 points over for a test - just to give the benefit of the doubt, of 675-725 for the init 1 manta. Its just not worth the 850 points.
Hmm, 250 points for...
2 DC.
4+RA instead of 5+RA.
90cm main guns instead of 75cm.
8x 4+ FF instead of 6x 5+ FF.
4x Burst Cannons instead of 2.
Transport capacity larger than the 400 point SM Landing Craft.

Doesn't look like a terribly bad deal to me.

I think its more that its difficult to get the full use out of the abilities the Manta has, rather than the abilities not matching its points value.  I haven't played a game with Tau big enough to really test that though.  I think thats part of the problem with the Manta, the Tau just can't afford the large WE in "regular" sized games.  They are a firepower army and the large WE get less starting firepower per point than non WE units.  The Orks, for example, can get around this as they are an assault army, and can potentially get more value out of their "assault focused" gargants (can make use of FF multiple times in a turn).

So I am not yet convinced that the Manta really is over-costed.  I am more of the opinion that it just doesn't suit the usual 2.7/3k games.  Perhaps it can be adjusted to fit better, say a reduction in its firepower to make it less expensive as a transport?  Or remove the transport/planetfall (with a note to say that it happens, but just not during a battle) and then keep it as a fire base, but at reduced cost.

If the board activity is any indicator - I think its time.
Quite right, definitely worth raising the topic. :)
Author:  Dobbsy [ Thu May 11, 2006 2:35 am ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
I look at it in Pros and Cons and how heavily those things weigh in a game Destructive Capability vs. Survivability, and how this looks when you compare points values.

We know all this already but I'll type it out anyway for clarity...
Other "Titans" get cover saves from terrain etc. and the Manta doesn't. (Big Con)
Other Titans get better armour saves/shields than the Manta (Big Con)
Other Titans have better CC values(Big Con)
Other Titans have better FF values(Big Con)
Other Titans have better initiative values (Big Con)
Other Titans don't have the firepower of the Manta (Big Pro)
Other Titans can't be dropped(minor Pro)
Other Titans don't have transport capacity(minor Pro)
Can't hide from Manta (Big Pro)
Cannot be engaged in CC but can in FF (big/minor Pro)

I'm pretty sure I covered everything (edited with hena's suggestions), anyway...

Going solely on these pros/cons you can see that the Mantas Cons outweigh its Pros in comparison with the other Titans in terms of its battle ability. IMO if it's 50 points more expensive than one of the most solid units in the game(Warlord) and it lasts substantially less time then it's definitely costed incorrectly.

For example if the Warlord puts out firepower _almost_ in comparison to the Manta (not saying equal here - in range or to hit values) but it survives a heck of a lot longer then surely the fp it puts out across a game would be more in comparison to the Manta - given it doesn't last as long? I hope this makes sense to you guys....

So, in conclusion my vote is yes points reduction should occur
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu May 11, 2006 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
I thought el manta had the same armour save? And ironically itsw the better at surviving TK fire than imperials, but worse at the more common AT fire.

The FF is a minus, but the CC isn't - as it can't be cc'ed in return after all!

So are you going to wieght each pro and con, or is each big one equal to another big one? :)
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu May 11, 2006 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
Quote (Tactica @ 10 May 2006 (17:16))
Due to the Tau strategy, it typically gets shot at before I get to activate it.

Who are you normally playing? Round my old clubs Orks and Guard were the most common armies.
Author:  Steele [ Thu May 11, 2006 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
I don?t use it very often as it takes too much ressources for a standard 2700 Points game. Therefore only Morays. If it is too costy? Yes, it is. I think 700 Points are a good start. Ini 1+ is fine and a must have if you retain. The latest tweaking regarding the FF Value was also most welcome and useful. The thing "Always be seen / always sees" is bad, but I can live with it, IF I get the chance to activate it. As Tactica pointed out: It gets shot as soon as it appears on the Table. Not very funny. :/

Cheers!
Steele
Author:  CyberShadow [ Thu May 11, 2006 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
I think that there is certain a valid point in here. I agree that the Manta is a prime candidate for an Init1+, and this seems to be a popular choice.

I must admit that the points do seem marginally high, but I wonld not want to drop it by 150 in one go. Another point that I need to keep in mind is the scaleability issue that has been mentioned. In a 2700/3000 point game, it is a lot of eggs, in a single basket. If the point value is dropped then we do run the risk of being swamped by the things in larger games (although this level of game is not necessarily the driving force of list development, we should bear it in mind).

As I see it, the real issue here is having a huge target which any enemy weapon can see right from the start.

With this in mind, I guess that the proposal here, as a starting point it:

Initiative: 1+
Points: 800

Are we in general agreement that the stats and abilities describe the craft well and dont need altering, and that therefore it is the balancing issues that should be addressed?
Author:  Steele [ Thu May 11, 2006 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
Quote CS:
Initiative: 1+
Points: 800

Are we in general agreement that the stats and abilities describe the craft well and dont need altering, and that therefore it is the balancing issues that should be addressed?


Yes, so far the Armament is fine.
Can we haggle about the Points?:p

Cheers!
Steele
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu May 11, 2006 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
I've favored 1+ initiative for a long time (pretty much since my first game with Tau).  I also agree that it's probably not way out of whack on points and think that starting with a 50 point drop (800 points) and continued review to see if it needs to drop more is the prudent course.
Author:  CyberShadow [ Thu May 11, 2006 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
Quote (Steele @ 11 May 2006 (13:10))
Yes, so far the Armament is fine.
Can we haggle about the Points?:p

We dont haggle. We engage in enlightened and persuasive discussion... and if that doesnt work we break open the gun locker!  :D
Author:  Tactica [ Thu May 11, 2006 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?
With this in mind, I guess that the proposal here, as a starting point it:

Initiative: 1+
Points: 800

Are we in general agreement that the stats and abilities describe the craft well and dont need altering, and that therefore it is the balancing issues that should be addressed?


1+ init is a long time overdue here.

800 points instead of 850 is a good place to start. I'd rather be cautious with the reduction.

Thanks CS

Cheers all,
Author:  dptdexys [ Thu May 11, 2006 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Other "Titans" get cover saves from terrain etc. and the Manta doesn't. (Big Con)

I would only say this is a small con because,
Titans can get the -1 to hit for being in/behind cover but not a cover save.
Other titans will have to manouvere more than the Manta to aquire a target (due to terrain feratures)and will be using sustain fire orders less often than a Manta is capable of .
Also the Manta can ignore all terrain (other titans have to take a difficult terrain test when moving in terrain features such as woods and ruins and they may have to move around some features such as buldings and wide rivers) This can give the ?Manta a small advantage when grabbing objectives.


Other Titans get better armour saves/shields than the Manta (Big Con)


This i do not understand as when you do the maths the Manta is better than a Warlord when it comes to surviving ranged attacks.

TK shots to kill a Warlord =14 (6 on shields 8 to kill)
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Manta ?=16 (half saved on 4+ deflector shield)

MW shots to kill a Warlord = 22 ? ( 6 on shields 16 to kill if half are saved with 4+ RA roll)
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Manta ? = 24 ?( 5+ deflector shield save would mean 8 saved out of 24 then the 4+ RA roll would mean 16 would be needed after penetration of the DS save)

AT hits to kill a Warlord =38 ?(6 on shields then 32 needed for the 4+ then 4+ RA saves to be penetrated)
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Manta ? =38 ?(DS saves of 6 + would mean 38 or 39 hits would be needed for the 32 hits to get through the RA saves.) ? ?

Its only when cover is involved and the -1 comes into effect for shooting that the number of attacks needed goes up but the hits needed still remain the same.As i stated above this is partially offset by the fact the Manta has to manouver less to acquire targets When cover is involved.

Again i would say this is a small con .


Other Titans have better CC values(Big Con)
Other Titans have better FF values(Big Con)

The CC values isn't a problem as the Manta cannot be dragged into CC and the FF values (as we are told often)is supposed to represent the tau way of fighting at longer range and not getting involved in assault engagements .


Other Titans have better initiative values (Big Con)

This is the one big problem I see for the Manta it should be 1+ initiative or atleast have a bonus of + 1 to initiative rolls if taking a sustain fire or advance order.


Other Titans don't have the firepower of the Manta (Big Pro)


Again this is due to the style of the Tau but I think is partially offset with its lower FF values


Other Titans can't be dropped(minor Pro)


This can be a Big pro, try planetfalling at the end of turn one after stripping shields of an enemey titan/gargant .You have to pre plot your DZ but not the facing of the Manta and it is ?fairly easy to hit anything on the table with 90 cm ranged TK weapons,this also limits the 1st turn attacks on your Manta.


The Manta also gets Built in AA cover (only the eldar titans get that in the official lists).
It is faster than The Warlord and Great Gargants (The eldar Titans get 25cm).
The Critcal on the Manta isn't as potentially as bad as the warlord but on par with the Gargants

All together I think with 1+ initiative and maybe the leader ability added to help shift the BMs the Manta would be fine.

If You compare how a Warlord,Great Gargant or the bigger Eldar Titans perform in 3000 point games I don't think you would be finding much difference to the complaints of the Manta.
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