Tactical Command
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Independent drone formations
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5631		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  asaura [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
This is not a finished thought, just some observations I made in a tournament on Sunday.

1) Other people don't like 75 point activations. They look bad on paper, even though there's a limit on how many you get.

2) Drones as an assault trigger

I used Drones to trigger assaults on two occasions. One failed and the other worked brilliantly. The idea is to place many supporting troops near the target and then trigger an assault with drones. They are very good for this purpose due to their speed, and the 5+ save is nice. I broke a Predator formation with this, and -- had I been the other guy, I would've been pretty pissed off.

Both these observations seem to indicate revising the idea of a 75 point Drone formation.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
I haven't played Tau in quite a while but when I was, I always took at least 1-2 formations of drones.  I found them extremely useful for hounding broken formations.

It only takes a couple kills for them to have been worth it so if you overextend them, who cares?  1 hackdown hit on a broken Russ formation and a -1 to rally for every formation within 30cm is probably worth it even if they never do another thing all game.
Author:  Ilushia [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
What about making normal drones only available as Upgrades for a formation and replace the Drone Contingent with a Heavy Drone Contingent, 4 Heavy Drones for 150 points? That'll cut down on the cheap activations, and make them about the same as Space Marine Scouts in terms of combat uses over-all. AP/Hackdown/Assault-triggers. Like Marine scouts and IG Sentinel Squads.
Author:  baronpiero [ Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
The trick is: being a cheap activation is what makes the gun drone formation have any worth currently.

However maybe a couple of changes could make the assault token harder to use:
- up cost to 100 pts for 4 drones
- reduce movement to 25cm (same as battlesuits and heavy drones), as it seems to be where the trick comes from.
- Upgun them to AP4+ as a counterpart, thus accounting for multiple pulse carbines


That way gun drones would be less likely to engage and a bit more in line with the cheapest activations available to other armies. ???
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
New assault rules fix the token assault (the drones die).
Oterwise the Tau have so many cheap activations there are better choices to max activations with.
Author:  Ilushia [ Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 13 June 2006 (15:03))
New assault rules fix the token assault (the drones die).
Oterwise the Tau have so many cheap activations there are better choices to max activations with.

That's only true if the enemy manages to wipe out all of the drones. With 4 drones as long as you're a little careful exactly where you put them it shouldn't be THAT hard to keep at least one alive long enough for supporting fire to enter the battle. At least it doesn't seem like it would be.
Author:  baronpiero [ Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
TRC
New assault rules fix the token assault (the drones die).

Woops! Token assalu wasn't appropriate and isn't Asaura's purpose. I meant a well supported assault with the 4 drones coming into FF range.



Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
What Ilushia said.  4 drones can definitely successfully initiate an assault even with the experimental rules.

I'd still call that a "token" assault as they are only 75 points and therefore represent a minimal investment in the assault with the primary purpose not of winning but of simply pulling in lots of supporting fire.
Author:  Ilushia [ Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
It partly depends on just who you're assaulting, and how many you get into firefight range. But 4 drones against 6 Tactical Marines and 3 Rhinos are likely to only loose 2, maybe 3, of them to the marines. Even if they get all 6 marines and all 3 Rhinos in range. THen they can draw supporting fire from the Fire Warriors or Pathfinders nearby to do hefty damage from reasonable range.

Me? I'd just make them Heavy Drones for 150. That makes them a bit more useful (AP 3+, Disrupt shots each), but also significantly more expensive. It's like IG Sentinel Formations. 100 points for 4 Sentinels, good for staging assaults and similar effects.
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
Don't know about the rest of you, but there is theory and then there is application.

I've tried to exploit the drones in this manner before. Both with and without the Tiger as a deployment mechanism.

With Tiger, there are simply better uses and better places to drop the drones. They are more beneficial as a cross-fire element in this delivery capacity, and you pay for the tiger to make this even an option - non issue.

As far as making this work in absence of a Tiger, you are talking about getting multiple Tau units close enough to make their FF a value, all while moving drones up for a charge. Its questionable as to how often this will become a viable option without effort for one...

Furthermore, in actually attempting to try and set this up (before the experimental rule was out) I was having difficulties. Now the list has changed since those days, but I seriously doubt that its changed enough to change my mind on this point. Previously, getting the drones within FF charge range while positioning other formations optimally for shooting and then a follow-up support action usually meant I was putting myself unnecessarily in harms way against savvy players.

So, unless the recent changes have somehow allowed this to become a more viable tactical option that it was previously, I think we are contemplating a non-issue.

I'd like to see some people put this to test. See if you can set up effective strategies around Tau token assaults that lead to game winning strategies consitently. If it becomes a valid concern from test, we need to address it - I'm right there with you guys.

However, if its a hit and miss strategy at best or relies upon a host of circumstances to pull off, or really can be proven to be an effective way to 'break the list, well... then that simply leaves us at "75 point formations on paper look scary."

If that's all it is, I can live with that.

Looking forward to bat rep results on this one if anyone can get it to work consistently.

Cheers,
Author:  asaura [ Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
Quote (Tactica @ 16 June 2006 (05:14))
Previously, getting the drones within FF charge range while positioning other formations optimally for shooting and then a follow-up support action usually meant I was putting myself unnecessarily in harms way against savvy players.

So, unless the recent changes have somehow allowed this to become a more viable tactical option that it was previously, I think we are contemplating a non-issue.

I'd like to see some people put this to test. See if you can set up effective strategies around Tau token assaults that lead to game winning strategies consitently. If it becomes a valid concern from test, we need to address it - I'm right there with you guys.

Aye. This thing needs a lot more evidence before doing anything drastic. I want to point out that, in Sunday's tournament, I was playing against people with no experience with the Tau -- I got away with things that would never fly with "savvy players".
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
Quote (Tactica @ 16 June 2006 (05:14))
I'd like to see some people put this to test. See if you can set up effective strategies around Tau token assaults that lead to game winning strategies consitently.

The thread started with Asaura commenting on in-game results.  Fire/support is pretty much a stock tactic.  In fact, the ease at which it is accomplished is pretty much what made token assaults problematic and led to the proposed assault rule change.

Jaldon illustrated in multiple batreps that the Tau can close to very short range in order to accomplish "pseudo-assaults" using their 15cm firepower and Disrupt abilities.  That's already a proven strategy.  This is a simple tactic to use and with a "Way of the Tau" type of strategy would clearly work and add value.

Is it unbalancing?  I don't know (and I'm not inclined to test it currently).  Moreover, given the proposed changes to FWs there may be an impact on that play concept in general.

However, it doesn't necessarily have to unbalance games to require fixing if it has a negative impact on play feel and/or design concepts.
Author:  Tactica [ Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
NH,

Asaura said he was playing against beginners. He also said it would need more testing himself... ???

Jaldon proved that you can get close - true, but we know you can get close, the point I made was can Tau win consistently with Token assaults from drones.

Token assaults were problematic for how quick armies with good FF support bases could prove the tactic valuable, Tau is somewhat unique in how bad they fight h-t-h by comparison to other forces of equal points. So Tau *might* have to commit several units to pull off a token assault effective and consistently, as a result, they *might* not really be able to put much steam in the tactic.

This is a simple tactic to use and with a "Way of the Tau" type of strategy would clearly work and add value.

Clearly... to you perhaps, to others... perhaps not. That is afterall why we have playtest and batreps though.

Perhaps you think the drones should be changed then. You seem to have come to your conclusion already. You may be very well correct. All I ask if for some consistent proof against a few different opponents that the problem is more than a theory on paper as its not 'clear' to me yet.

However, it doesn't necessarily have to unbalance games to require fixing if it has a negative impact on play feel and/or design concepts.
True, but I'll leave those calls to CS.

Unless we see otherwise, I'm happy with the drones at the current cost for value.

Cheers,
Author:  Xisor [ Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
My only comment on this matter is that they should perhaps be named Gun Drone Wings for a formation, not Squadrons. Each stand or two is a Squadron :p
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Independent drone formations
Quote (Tactica @ 18 June 2006 (08:54))
You seem to have come to your conclusion already.

Can you read my post again?

I said nothing of the sort and explicitly stated that I did not know whether the technique was unbalanced.  I took issue with your assertion that it was not a viable tactic.

Small formations fulfill similar roles in all other armies, Tau do have decent FF with which to use the technique, are proven to operate at close quarters, and drones are ideal units with which to initiate assaults.  It's blatantly obvious that it is effective.  All the pieces are there.

That doesn't mean the drone formation is unbalanced or needs to be changed.  It only means exactly what I said - that it will work.
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