Tactical Command
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Some History
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5614		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Ilushia [ Fri May 12, 2006 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Some History
A lot of you probably have never heard of a game called Marathon or of the Pfhor. But I thought I should share some old history, and something which is just a bit too close to the Tau's physiological and symbology for me to assume it's random chance (though it might well be!). Back in 1994 a game company by the name of Bungie produced a game called Marathon. The symbol used for the UESC (United Earth Space Comission) is the one you'll find under my name. (For a larger version check here: http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/ ... logoff.gif).

The Pfhor themselves were taller then humans, slighter and had a physical build which over-all seems entirely too close to Tau. Especially their foot-designs and body-structure. Most notably the Pfhor had a third eye in their forehead, the Tau are also commonly portrayed with an eye-like item in their foreheads. (See here for a picture of a Pfhor from the game: http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/ ... .4.1.1.gif)

We all know the Tau are obsessed with the idea of the Greater Good and that they either ally or destroy every race in the galaxy. I'll admit this one's way different then the Pfhor, as is their combat-doctrine. The Pfhor were slavers after all.

Their text would be the other bit which seems too close to be random. Here's an example of Pfhor text, one of the Pfhor client-races. http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/m2/sphtterm3.gif And here's some Tau text. http://us.games-workshop.com/games....ory.htm

The Gun Drones also heavily resemble the defense drones from the first game (sadly I can't find a picture of these) both in terms of looks and armament.

I'm sure most of you probably don't care. And anyone who actually read this far, I salute you  :;):  Did GW rip off Bungies' monster-designs? I don't know. I will say this though: The differences between the two (especially their non-infantry construction and military styles) is sufficient to make me doubt they ripped them off whole sale. Though it would not surprise me if some of their designers had at least seen them before!

Make your own conclusions. We now return you to your regularly schedualed game testing. Thank you for your time.
Author:  dafrca [ Fri May 12, 2006 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Some History
Quote (Ilushia @ 12 May 2006 (14:52))
Did GW rip off ........?

In the almost 20 years (has it been that long?) I have been shocked at how little original stuff they do. Their strength has been more along the lines of take something that already exists and twist it darker and drop it in.

Now I am not saying it is out right stealing, just they love using historical issues and tork them to their own needs. many of the names, locations, words they use are not original.

However, I am less willing to think they borrow so heavy from someone elses IP. What I do believe is that a single person could have borrowed some insperation and it rode on to publication.

dafrca
Author:  Moscovian [ Fri May 12, 2006 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Some History
Sci-Fi authors are constantly 'borrowing' ideas from elsewhere.  The Tyranids IMO are loosely borrowed from Heinlein's Starship Troopers, although there are probably a hundred other books our there with the bio army from another galaxy that eats everything (all of it written by people who were allergic to spider bites when they were children, most likely).

The character Riddick in Chronicles of Riddick is definitely taken from the greatest scifi book ever written, The Stars My Destination by Alfred Bester.

But I digress.  It wouldn't shock me at all the GW borrowed from somebody else's work.  It isn't a good thing or a bad thing.  It's just a sci-fi thing. :D  :cool:
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri May 12, 2006 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Some History
It's all artistic endeavors, really.  The famous quote is "originality is just being able to hide your sources."  And to a large part it's true.

I would strongly suspect that at least part of the design team had been exposed to that material but that doesn't make it theft.  There is a difference between being influenced, being derivative, and violating someone else's IP.
Author:  Ilushia [ Sat May 13, 2006 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Some History
Eh, I didn't really mean it as theft. Probably poorly worded. I mostly just found it amusing to see how close the two were in terms of artistic style is all. To me it's less of a 'We're stealing your idea!' and more of paying homage. Especially since the game series ended in... 1998 I think. So it's not like they're making active use of it. I just found it amusing how close the two were to eachother is all.  :;):
Author:  primarch [ Sat May 13, 2006 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Some History
Quote (dafrca @ 12 May 2006 (18:18))
Quote (Ilushia @ 12 May 2006 (14:52))
Did GW rip off ........?

In the almost 20 years (has it been that long?) I have been shocked at how little original stuff they do. Their strength has been more along the lines of take something that already exists and twist it darker and drop it in.

Now I am not saying it is out right stealing, just they love using historical issues and tork them to their own needs. many of the names, locations, words they use are not original.

However, I am less willing to think they borrow so heavy from someone elses IP. What I do believe is that a single person could have borrowed some insperation and it rode on to publication.

dafrca

Hi!

Im amazed that those who made "aliens" never sued GW for their genestealers. Its a blatant ripoff.

Primarch
Author:  dafrca [ Sat May 13, 2006 3:40 am ]
Post subject:  Some History
Quote (primarch @ 12 May 2006 (16:18))
Quote (dafrca @ 12 May 2006 (18:18))
Quote (Ilushia @ 12 May 2006 (14:52))
Did GW rip off ........?

In the almost 20 years (has it been that long?) I have been shocked at how little original stuff they do. Their strength has been more along the lines of take something that already exists and twist it darker and drop it in.

Now I am not saying it is out right stealing, just they love using historical issues and tork them to their own needs. many of the names, locations, words they use are not original.

However, I am less willing to think they borrow so heavy from someone elses IP. What I do believe is that a single person could have borrowed some insperation and it rode on to publication.

dafrca

Hi!

Im amazed that those who made "aliens" never sued GW for their genestealers. Its a blatant ripoff.

Primarch

Them or Hans Rudi Giger either one.

But then that is life....   :laugh:

dafrca
Author:  colonel_sponsz [ Sat May 13, 2006 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Some History
I have head the Marathon/Tau connection before (and I recognised your icon) but I hadn't seen the screen grabs or realised how strong the connection was.

To use NH's quote about artistic endeavors, GW are renowned for have never done a good job at hiding their sources.  In fact they are about as good at hiding their sources as they currently are at supporting Epic...

Orde
Author:  Ilushia [ Sat May 13, 2006 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Some History
I mostly just found the whole bit amusing. I've been kindof tempted to try and collect a Tau army and convert it to resemble them a bit more heavily. Don't know I'd succeed, but it'd be fun to see what kind of odd reactions I might get from other players  :;):
Author:  dafrca [ Sat May 13, 2006 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Some History
Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 13 May 2006 (01:49))
To use NH's quote about artistic endeavors, GW are renowned for have never done a good job at hiding their sources. ?In fact they are about as good at hiding their sources as they currently are at supporting Epic...

:laugh:

Yep, well put.

dafrca
Author:  Ilushia [ Sat May 13, 2006 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Some History
These are reallly just the similarities which occured to me at first. There're others (a lot of others) too. A number of naming conventions are shared with the S'pht as well. But I'm sure most of you wouldn't want to read the synopsis on that one  :;):

On the topic of GW taking stuff from Starship Troopers... Honestly the Tyranids aren't particularly similar to the bugs in the original novel. The bugs in the novel are all self-sentient, and use advanced technology. They have a greater proportion of telepaths then the humans do, their brain bugs being the most powerful examples. The one group which really got ripped out of SST though is the Space Marines. Other then their physiological differences virtually the entire design idea is taken from that book. Power-armored soldiers who train constantly every day, travel in mid-sized drop-ships with only weapons sufficient to deliver them to the battlefield, lightning fast movements and designed to work in small units, orbital injection of troops via drop-pods, the entire idea of exclusively power-armored soldiers comes from that book. In fact, as far as I know, the basic idea behind Power Armor and the first example of how it might work comes in that book. Virtually the entire Space Marine tactical information is a direct transliteration from the novel, though the Mobile Infantry had significantly better equipment then Space Marines do.
Author:  Nightbringer [ Sat May 13, 2006 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Some History
Lol, and then there's the whole Starcraft thing.... The Zerg are nigh on identical to the nids, bar their worm-like Hydralisks.... And what did the nids get next release? The Red Terror AND Raveners...

Lol its all just thieves stealing from theives.... Hmmm... Maybe stealing is too strong a word, " permanently borrowing" sounds better, and as long as the models look good, who cares?

~ Nightbinger
Author:  colonel_sponsz [ Sat May 13, 2006 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Some History
Just been reading IA4:  The first half is Aliens and the second half is Starship Troopers.  (Edit:  I'm talking about the films.)

Crisis suits barrow heavily from Appleseed.  The Eldar are fantasy elves in space, Squats are space dwarfs, Necrons are space undead.  Any student of AFV's can point out which bits of Imperal tanks come from which real world tank.    There's more but I can't be bothered to think of them.  Nothing new under the sun.  Inluding GW lifting things with minor re-imaginings - they've been doing it for a long, long time.

Edit II:  According to Wikipedia "A few elements of the [40k] setting (bolters, frag grenades, Dreadnought armour) can be seen in a set of earlier wargaming rules called Laserburn produced by Tabletop Games."  To which I'll add the mechanics came from Warhammer Fantasy Battle.  Where do you want to stop...

Orde
Author:  dafrca [ Sun May 14, 2006 1:29 am ]
Post subject:  Some History
Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 13 May 2006 (14:48))
>>>>The Eldar are fantasy elves in space, Squats are
>>>>space dwarfs, Necrons are space undead. ?


>>>>To which I'll add the mechanics came from Warhammer
>>>>Fantasy Battle. ?

"Borrowing" from your own previous work is just plane smart. When a Company wants to redo it's basic rules with a face lift and a new scope, great that is a good way to maximize your research dollar. Nothing wrong with that.

Borrowing from others, dependent on amount and level is either a compliment or a shame. I think of the way Outland the Movie was a lift from a great cowboy movie. Not a rip off, but a nod to the value of the overall story.

What I dislike is GW rips off history and then tries to Copyright it like they came up with it. GW came up with the Inquisition for example? Right.

dafrca
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Mon May 15, 2006 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Some History
Quote (dafrca @ 13 May 2006 (03:40))
Quote (primarch @ 12 May 2006 (16:18))
Quote (dafrca @ 12 May 2006 (18:18))
Quote (Ilushia @ 12 May 2006 (14:52))
Did GW rip off ........?

In the almost 20 years (has it been that long?) I have been shocked at how little original stuff they do. Their strength has been more along the lines of take something that already exists and twist it darker and drop it in.

Now I am not saying it is out right stealing, just they love using historical issues and tork them to their own needs. many of the names, locations, words they use are not original.

However, I am less willing to think they borrow so heavy from someone elses IP. What I do believe is that a single person could have borrowed some insperation and it rode on to publication.

dafrca

Hi!

Im amazed that those who made "aliens" never sued GW for their genestealers. Its a blatant ripoff.

Primarch

Them or Hans Rudi Giger either one.

But then that is life.... ? :laugh:

dafrca

Different number of arms?

And also different colour scheme. Nids painted black would definitely look different to standard purple and flesh colour.

There is a sort of alluring androgenous sexuallity about Hans Rudi Giger's work. Almost Slaaneshi.  :blush:  :blush:
Cheers

James
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