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consequences of the new 40k codex
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5600		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  thurse [ Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
Hi!

I would like to know if the current epic Tau list will be modified with the update of the 40k codex.

I don't have the codex yet but I've heard that there are new units and that some of existing ones are modified ( for example, see TRC post on pathfinders ).

As the codex is presented as a technological evolution, will we adopt the changes in the future?

Cheers!
Author:  CyberShadow [ Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
Hi. I just came here to post that... my new Codex arrived today!  :blues:  I will be giving it a careful read through very soon.

As to the question, I propose that the list is modified to meet the new codex where this does not hugely invalidate current development. I cant see that there will be many actual changes to the current list, since we are using a shared background that has not changed (it is just the 40K implementation of that background that has been altered a little), but there will be some additions.

For example, one thing that I would like to address with the next version are the alien auxiliaries. I put back looking at the Kroot to allow us to cover all of the options together, so I would like to address these guys and the Humans, as well as solicit ideas about whether the Vespids should be added, and how.

That is for another thread, coming soon.

Thanks.
Author:  HecklerMD [ Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
My short-take summary of the changes in the new Codex and what we may need to do with them:

All the new XV8 / XV88 Battlesuit systems:
Almost entirely nothing to do with our list-most of the items are too small detail for Epic, thought the Cyclic Ion Blaster might make a case for the Commander upgrades to get +1 FF attack.

XV15 / XV22 / XV25 StealthSuits - 1 in 3 XV25s can take a Fusion Blaster, so perhaps 1 in 3 stands can have a 15cm MW5+ attack?  Also, XV22 kinda justifies allowing a low-end Leader upgrade in StealthSuit units, IMO

New ML Rules:  No change for us.

Sniper Drones: Hmm...
Upgrade to FWs, Replace 1 FW stand with 1 Sniper Drone Team:
Inf, Armor 6 / CC 6 / FF 6
3x AP6+ 30 CM, Sniper, Disrupt

Just throwing that out... :p

Skyray/Pirhana:  We already got em.  Though Pirhanas can now take Fusion Blasters now.... :devil:

Vespid:  Ahh... :D
Alien Auxs dont intrest me in general, I'll let someone else take a crack at 'em.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
To be frank I think the only way a codex would alter how an epic army operates is if its style changed.

At the end of the day it isn't a direct port. If a pathfinder unit is most accurately replicated with CC2+ and infiltrate (not that it is mind you) as that is the effect of a bunch of 40k rules that is what you would consider, or dare I say it go up a level to see if the army is giving the same macro response that it does in the micro 40k scale.

Course i ain't got a clue how 40k works anymore and instead go with the fluff, which of course can have no impact on the stats and effectiveness in reality (e.g says in stats lynchpin of army, in reality 1 is employed to guard a tree etc).
Author:  Honda [ Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
I'd have to agree with TRC, the overall effects, on an Epic list from 40K changes, should be minimal.

The Sniper drones unit would be a nice to have, but from a macro view, probably shouldn't be introduced into the list. The role could just as easily be fulfilled by a Pathfinder unit (because they are such great snipers  :p ) and just substitute drones for figures.
Author:  CyberShadow [ Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
This brings me on to a question. We currently group all Drone types into standard and heavy. We currently have actual minis to represent standard. There are clear problems with trying to represent more than one type of Drone here (for example Gun Drones and Sniper Drones) due to the confusion with having a single mini to represent both types.

That said, what is the opinion on this situation? Should we continue to stick with a generic Drone with represents a mix of types, or can we/should we try to differentiate?
Author:  Tactica [ Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
Quote (thurse @ 28 Mar. 2006 (04:03))
Hi!

I would like to know if the current epic Tau list will be modified with the update of the 40k codex.

I don't have the codex yet but I've heard that there are new units and that some of existing ones are modified ( for example, see TRC post on pathfinders ).

As the codex is presented as a technological evolution, will we adopt the changes in the future?

Cheers!

Heh - becareful what you wish for their Tyranid -boy. :p

If we do - I can't wait!!!

The Markerlight overhaul is the number one fundamental overhaul in the new dex. That alone will make the entire Tau E:A list much MUCH stronger than it is now - should we embrace your suggestion.

Afterall, **IF** we were to entertain your suggestion, surely you wouldn't propose we ignore the single largest boone we received in the new codex from the E:A conversion? Surely you are not suggestiong we simply rely on old ML philosophy while somehow manipulating the pathfinders - just because.

BTW:

I also want to note that all crisis battlesuits and broadsides get the option for +1 to hit now.

Furthermore, all shield drones now act as the armor of the unit they are shielding [AND] provide a 4+ invulnerable save.

That is much better than just a 4+ invulnerable for things like crisis and broadsides whom which have a 3+ and 2+ respectively in 40K.

Again - if you want us to entertain an overhaul from Tau Codex Empires Hena - perhaps you should consider 1 thing. The old Tau codex was considered to be underpowered in 40K by comparison. The new codex gave them a face lift, more options, more flexability, reduced points of many units - like crisis suits, and added many new concepts which would be deadly in E:A - like the multi-use marker light.

:alien:

Cheers,
Author:  Gotchaye [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:52 am ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
I'm not sure whether the markerlight changes translate over into Epic very well, if at all.  They still launch Seekers, obviously, but they're actually less useful now when applied to something large, like a Hammerhead.  It used to be that one thing hit on a 2+ and ignored cover, now a whole squad of things gets a much smaller benefit.  However, it's certainly not the case that a whole army (an Epic formation) benefits from a markerlight.  At best, a single unit of Fire Warriors would get something, or a single Hammerhead would get something (and that something would be less than whatever the old Tau codex would have given it).  In short, if we were fine not letting them do anything other than launch Seekers previously, I don't see why we should feel that they deserve something new now.

As for the newfound ability of suits to take targeting arrays, it should be noted that this comes at the cost of using multiple weapons in a single turn for any non-leader suit.  As far as how the Epic rules ought to portray this, the only precedents I could think of are the Ulthwe Black Guardians, who are identical to the basic sort, and Eldar War Walkers and Wraithlords, who have identical Bright Lance profiles, although they have different ballistic skills.  There are probably similar things in other lists, though I wouldn't be as familiar with them.

You're certainly right that Shield Drones got loads better, so much so that I doubt I'll ever see a Broadside without them again.  I'm not sure how to represent that, though, or whether we should just stick with the 'incorporated into unit profiles' line.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:21 am ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
Well it would go to my point above - you would see how the Tau list plays now and does the E:A list still replicate that feel or perhaps more accurately intent.

From what I've seen of 40k marines they play very differently to Epic marines (standing in open and blasting is an exciting form or suicide).

If you wanted to replicate the mechanic of markerlights having multiple uses/stackable etc you would have to see what you do to do that and maintain balance, it could be you could only achieve that by reducing a lot of the basic to hits. Or by upping the points, and as a consequence of having so few units now you might have to up the armour as epics somewhat deadly and so on.

So why don't you try to come up with some mechanics to replicate the 40k Tau list Tactica (you seem to be the most ofay with it) and see what they do to the Tau play style/game? (For instance would all units with markerlights get +1 to hit themselves, even if they use them for another formation etc.)

Re drones, unless you want people to do very fiddly conversions you are stuck with the two types - unless it would be clear that one pathfinder and 3 drones is a drone sniper team.

It would be interesting as an exercise to see if you could have such a drone/pathfinder combo, you would have to take into account what stats it would have, whether or not it would be an upgrade, can it be transported and what would happen to the original pathfinder stats.

perhaps any impact from different Tau play styles should be something to be assessed in v4.6 or similar after things have settled down and other identified issues are considered?
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:12 am ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
Personally, I'm happy with what we have already playtested. I don't see a huge need to incorporate all the new Tau Codex gear into our list - I think their effects are minimal as some have said. Each army's 40K codex is wildly different in the way it plays to that of their E:A counterparts anyway as play style is different in both games and I, for one, like it that way. I don't want to be playing an exact miniature version of 40K... err .. well we kinda do but i hope you know what I mean... :cool: :D
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
I dunnu, the guard seem to be pretty similar (line up, fire) :)
Saying that from the 40k games I've seen its all a bit DBMish and doesn't grab me.
Author:  Xisor [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
By my reckoning, the only things that need to be address in regards to the new Codex are:

Sniper Drone Teams

Vespids

Both suggestions see here:

http://www.epic40k.co.uk/epicomm....r+drone

Ignore the Demiurg reference. I've come way past that meagre suggestion!

Xisor
Author:  tneva82 [ Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  consequences of the new 40k codex
Quote (Tactica @ 28 Mar. 2006 (23:32))
The old Tau codex was considered to be underpowered in 40K by comparison.

Or rather they didn't sell enough so boost them. GW cares about sales. Not how well balanced army is. If army ends up too good GW says just "so what? Atleast that army sells more!".

Heck just look at dwarves. Yes the army was underpowered but NOTHING there that deserved downgrading? Funny how NOTHING got weakened by one bit. Everything got improved.
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