Tactical Command
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Kroot auxiliary
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5547		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  clausewitz [ Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary
Hena, in comparison to the Hormagaunt I think you need to take into consideration the special rules that have a big impact on their usefulness.  The 'Nids have a number of big advantages in assault that the Kroot do no have.  The individual Hormagaunt can also be respawned.  Similarly with the Ork Commando (e.g. 1+ to engage).
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:58 am ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary
Hena,

"What Cw said!"

I encourage you to do this though. You have to take into account all the army special rules that affect the units in question.

Orc bonus' to activate on doubles, orc BM management, ork bonus to engage...etc.

Tyrands can respawn their dead gaunts so that one model may come back quite a few times in a turn not to mention over the course of a game. Tyranids ignore BM where kroot tally them then run.

The ability to move up and dump blast markers on an emey from shooting is quite handy - it means you don't have to engage to do the damage - it means your net 'game effect' range is double your move + your guns range + any damage potential of your gun. Kroot don't shoot.

Looking forward to your analysis.

Cheers,
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:47 am ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary
Quote (Hena @ 19 Feb. 2006 (23:05))
But even if you disagree to other points, it still doesn't mean that hounds price is correct. Either hounds price is lowered or kroot price goes up. Or hounds are made better to suit the current cost. My option from that was rising the price of Kroot since it's perhaps a little too small.

I'll agree that presently the hounds and kroot prices don't seem to align.

Raising the price of kroot will not make me play them any more though, I'll tell you that much.

Outside of trying to make them work in the occassional playtest game - I don't field them.

I've yet to see the Kroot make it as a staple in anyone's list that posts regularly either... so, ...
Author:  asaura [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary
Brainstorming:

The Kroot could perhaps only have FF6+. They currently have FF5+, which is pretty nice, combined with Infiltrate. They cover some real real estate with an FF threat. Granted, 5+ is not great, but it's not all bad, either.
Author:  Xisor [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary
I'm not quite sure about dropping the Kroot FF value. I mean, Kroot Mercs are a better deal with their rifles than their equivalent number of guardsmen. The only edge the guard have on them are their heavy/special weapons.

To this end, I propose that Kroot be priced as they should be regarding the value of other units in the list. Why? Well, surely a unit of Fire Warriors will always feel 'instinctively' better. Kroot, unless they are relatively cheap, are a waste in a Tau army where you can have things that do their job better. If anything they need to be slightly better for their cost to make them either: 1- Useful or 2- competative with other things in the list.

Kroot aren't regarded as sub par via 40k Fluff. Rather, the Tau empire use their numbers to 'hold the line'. A couple of Formations of Kroot should make an excellent garrissoning setup. Not particularly useful overall, but not simply 'bodies on the objective'.

Okay, I'm arguing myself in circles without a large basis in the stats of the game.Tactica's final point is IMO the most pertinant point that's been made so far.

Xisor
Author:  Honda [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary

I've yet to see the Kroot make it as a staple in anyone's list that posts regularly either... so, ...


We actually had a fairly lengthy discussion on this observation a while back and I think the issue revolves around the Kroot "role".

1. In 40K, the Kroot have already gotten close enough to an opponent to initiate assaults before they are assaulted. They are also a unit that operates well (ignores woods for the most part) in a heavily wooded environment. Hence they have value at that scale.

2. In E:A, the Kroot face a couple of problems.

a) Scale - If you plant a bunch of Kroot on your side of the board in a woods, it's not that big a deal. Most people will either find a way to maneuver around them, or isolate them.

b) Utility - The Tau list is heavily mechanized, or at least can be. There isn't a lot of value added to a mechanized force by light skirmishing forces. The Kroot don't bring anything to the mix that other forces don't do a lot better, even if they do cost more. One of the things that some people struggle with in using Tau is recognizing the benefits of layering capabilities to provide a decisive advantage. The Kroot don't provide much in the way of needed capabilities. They pretty much just stand there and hope that they don't get assaulted.

As an aside, although it's only fluff, in the Taros campaign, the Kroot were pretty much relagated to "garrisoning" fixed terrain features (Phyyra Heights , Hydro Plant 23-30), where their sole purpose of existence was the denial of the feature to Imperials.

So, I think one way of approaching this exercise is to determine up front, what the expected role of the Kroot should be. Once we've done that, then figuring out what their stats ought to be should be a little easier.

Just to throw something out there, possible roles could be:

1. Light scouting force, featuring Warriors, Hounds, and Knarloc riders (the cavalry guys, not the Super Turkey).

2. Garrison force, featuring Warriors, Krootox, and Super Turkeys.

Over to you... ? ?:/



Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary
Yes, not letting Kroot or Gue' use Transport ... limits their use in a mech force like the Tau ... IMO ... :D
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary
Garrisson wise aren't the human allies a better deal? After all firepower is more useful in such a force than assault capabilities typically.
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary
Quote (Honda @ 20 Feb. 2006 (08:12))


So, I think one way of approaching this exercise is to determine up front, what the expected role of the Kroot should be. Once we've done that, then figuring out what their stats ought to be should be a little easier.

Just to throw something out there, possible roles could be:

1. Light scouting force, featuring Warriors, Hounds, and Knarloc riders (the cavalry guys, not the Super Turkey).

2. Garrison force, featuring Warriors, Krootox, and Super Turkeys.

Over to you... ? ?:/

Honda,

This is an interesting idea. This would get away from the 'buy a kroot formation and add additional units' which was the legacy mentality in the 40K tau codex.

If I understand your proposition correctly, we would essentially assemble two different types of kroot formations:

1. Light scouting force, featuring Warriors, Hounds, and Knarloc riders (the cavalry guys, not the Super Turkey).

This formations could focus on speed and combat. Thus making it fast enough to keep up with the E:A scale. It could encorporate evolutionary components of Fleet of foot and fleet of wing into the profiles of the formation. Armor would be limited as speed is the favored defense. Shooting could be limited to decent FF from the knarloc riders and warriors. Overall, the formation could be made to be an effective ground based engaging element for the tau from FF or CC based manouvres.

2. Garrison force, featuring Warriors, Krootox, and Super Turkeys.
Great Knarlocs i.e. Super Turkeys - LOL... you may have just given L4 a heart attack!

Anyway, this formation could be more of the 'hold the line' formation. Warriors could be more of a support role ot the Krotox and 'super turkey's. The entire formation could be able to fight well, but mobility could be limited to more traditional infantry by comparison to the light scouting formation. The main role of this formation could be to capitalize on the Great Knarlocs and Krootox shooting potential. This formation could sport better armor and we could even utilize the 'tough' kroot evolvolutionary traits for durability and stability rather than speed.

Anyway - I'm thinking I like the idea of 'what are they used for' and then designing around that. The current methodology to the E:A Kroot just isn't appealing. A rethink may be in order.

Cheers,
Author:  Xisor [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary
I suppose the two Tau name things for tactics(the names escape me, Kauyon is one...I think} could be adapted here.

One, fast moving strike team formation, formed of cavalry, hounds and carnivores, gets a significant boost in CC, perhaps even a good ability to actually win a combat!

The other, predominantly Kroot Ox Herds(like the Merc List} and Greater Knarlocs, with smaller beastmaster and attendent Kroot supervising the formation.

This works nicely, the second formation has room for the long ranged weapons as well as a decent FF value(4+}, whilst the former, as I say, would be quicker, and have a more impressive combat value.

Seems like a good twist. Good idea Honda.

Xisor
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Kroot auxiliary
Seems like a good twist. Good idea Honda.


I tend to agree.

CS - do you have any interest in pursuing this kind of an approach with the Kroot? (see above)

May be something to consider in your articles you are talking about posting this week with your road to v4.4 and vault versioning - which we all hope is sooner rather than later! ;)
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