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[ 6 posts ]

coordinated fire , kroot and hero class cruiser
lilith	Post subject: coordinated fire , kroot and hero class cruiser Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:42 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:26 am Posts: 160 Location: italy viareggio	Uhm don't you think that coordinated fire is a little too powerful? why 15 cm when all the other army option is only 5 cm and for charge that is more difficult to do with 3 unit. Why kroot cost near 17 point and have initiative 2 move 15 cm armour none , cc 4+ ff 5+ scout and infiltrator and one base with macro weapon. For example a ten unit is 175 points a similar unit (for an army that is fully cac oriented) of orc (6 boyz , 2  grotz and 2 nobs) is 200 pts and the orc profile is this (move 15 initiative 3/1if charge or double armour 6+ cc4+ ff 6+ and a powerful  30 cm 6+/6+ attack).Don't you think that for a oriented fire army this unit is a little too cheap for what it do=? And why the hero class costs only 150 pts when the custodian cost 300 and had only 1 pin point attack and slow and steady.I think that the hero must be slow and steady also annd maybe 200 pts.Otherwise Custodian may cost 150 and Hero class 300 with slow and steady. I don't rember other spacecraft that can planetfall 1 turn or when wish
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clausewitz	Post subject: coordinated fire , kroot and hero class cruiser Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:18 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland	Hi Lilth, welcome to the Tau board. Coordinated fire: hasn't been shown as too powerful so far.  Two main reasons.  Firstly shooting is less decisive than assaults.  Secondly using coordinated fire uses up activations quickly, which the Tau often pay the price for.  Quite a number of the Tau playtesters rarely use coordinated fire.  It is seen as a very specific tool for just the right curcumstances, not something to use all the time.  Others are more in favour of it, but I've not seen it used more than once or twice in a game.  It might get used more now that Crisis Cadres have 1+ initiative. Kroot: again nobody has found them to be overly powerful.  In fact I dont think I can even remember reading a batrep with Kroot being used.  Please try them out and let us know if they actually performed to your expectations, I'm sure we'd all like to know the secret to getting good use from the Kroot.  The main problem is the lack of armour, they tend to die when used, or when shot at. The Custodian has a huge transport capacity, which is why it is more expensive (and as its the battleship equivalent it is Slow and Steady).  Pretty much every army has a space craft capable of arriving on turn 1 (SM Strike cruiser, IN Lunar Class Cruiser etc).
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lilith	Post subject: coordinated fire , kroot and hero class cruiser Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:19 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:26 am Posts: 160 Location: italy viareggio	uhm kroot must be garrisoned in cover or out of sight.Then if the enemy is a cac army they must charge the incoming enemy unit and probably the can win one cac or more with the ?number.If the enemy is a full fire then you had to garrisoned them and use them as lure.They are very cheap and if ignored can do very well. Ehm in wich battle you can deploy 1 ?hero class or custodian and more than 6 orca / moray and 1 manta? 5000? more? So i think ?that transport capcity is unuseful in ?tournament battle or normal battle . So for 150 pts hero class don't have the bad thing of custodian (slow and steady ) have more pin point attack and have less transportation capacity (but as i say is ridiculus because i don't think in normal battle anyone can deploy so much spacecraft/jet).The point is simple the hero class is ?too powerfull for its costs and custodian is too fluffy for 300 pts. For coordinated fire a friend of mine do this : planetfall ?from hero class with the manta.Then deploy the embarked crisis (of course he deploy 15 away thanks to jet packs) and broadside and then he mantain and coordinated fire with manta,crisis and broadside he wipeout an enemy 900 pts Break their spirit with one action and without his enemy can evenly reply or do nothing like AA.If he do the same to an imperial titan i think the reusult is the same. Don't you think is a little too powerfull?With two 2+ roll he use 4 unit destroy a unit of choice (because with that firepower i don't think anithyng can stand , maybe a 40-50 ork unit) gain an objects and maybe place his ?3 unit in cover or good position.Any other boy had opinion on this ?
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clausewitz	Post subject: coordinated fire , kroot and hero class cruiser Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:13 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland	Kroot, again please try it and see.  As a cheap garrison to sit on an objective they are ok.  But there are plenty of formations that can do that (Guardian Hosts, Siege Infantry, Gue'vesa, Big Guns etc).  They're not all exactly the same, they have their strengths and weaknesses, but why are the Kroot so much better?  We'd love to hear a batrep with Kroot being sucessful. Custodian, its really there for fluff purposes, and for campaign battles that are really large.  The Hero has 2 PPA as it has no orbital barrage.  The cost is in line with other space craft IIRC. CF, well your friend is using over half his army to do that, so there should be decent potential for sucess.  There are a lot of variables involved, so I couldnt really say for sure that this tactic will always destroy the target formation (if it breaks early it could move out of range/LOF, you do always have a 1/3 chance of failing two consecutive 2+ initiative rolls, etc).  Its certainly a big alpha strike tactic, but this can also be achieved in some way by other armies (Eldar triple activation, SM Landing Craft assault..).  These tactics all involve the risk of leaving a large part of your army somewhat hanging out and at the mercy of the rest of your opponents army.
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nealhunt

Post subject: coordinated fire , kroot and hero class cruiser Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:38 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Ehm in wich battle you can deploy 1  hero class or custodian and more than 6 orca / moray and 1 manta? 5000? more? So i think  that transport capcity is unuseful in  tournament battle or normal battle. Spacecraft stats are pretty much restricted to what the BFG stats say they should be.  As far as usefulness in the GT scenario, there are many items scattered across the army lists that are not useful in the GT scenario.  They are included for use in non-GT play. For example, Land Raiders can carry Tactical Marines, but there is no way to do so in the GT army list.  As another example, Ork spacecraft are pretty well useless in the GT scenario, but we just played a planetary assault scenario for a campaign where the Slow and Steady craft was available for deployment on Turn 1. For coordinated fire a friend of mine do this : planetfall  from hero class with the manta.Then deploy the embarked crisis (of course he deploy 15 away thanks to jet packs) and broadside and then he mantain and coordinated fire with manta,crisis and broadside he wipeout an enemy 900 pts Break their spirit with one action and without his enemy can evenly reply or do nothing like AA.If he do the same to an imperial titan i think the reusult is the same. Don't you think is a little too powerfull?With two 2+ roll he use 4 unit destroy a unit of choice (because with that firepower i don't think anithyng can stand , maybe a 40-50 ork unit) gain an objects and maybe place his  3 unit in cover or good position.Any other boy had opinion on this ?

No, it's not too powerful.  That was ~1500 points in 2 activations and it required accurately pre-plotting the correct Landing Zone.  A large commitment of forces with good coordination deserves to be very effective.

Planetfall can be countered by screening scout formations and putting formations on Overwatch.  A scout formation would have "bounced" the planetfall at least 10cm from the scout formation and likely 20+cm from the target formation.  OW formations can fire at Planetfalling formations after they disembark.

Between the difficulty of picking the LZ and the potential defenses against planetfall, chances are that in order for this to succeed, it had to be a Turn 1, first activation tactic.  If so, the Tau player has effectively split his forces in half because the rest of the army will be so far away (the deployment zone).  The Tau are behind in activations for the rest of the turn and it's the enemy's activation.

Yes, it definitely hurt, but life is about to become extremely hard for that planetfall force.  I would expect most of it to be destroyed by the end of the turn.