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Tau Leaders
nealhunt	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:38 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Another option would just be to drop the point cost of the shas'el (or shas'o - the low level one). 25 points might make them a no-brainer for the crisis formations, but they should probably have one anyway for flavor reasons.  For other formations, they would have to add a crisis upgrade AND the leader, making it more accessible but not by a lot.  It would also add infantry if you wanted an armored cadre with a leader, providing a minor drawback in the mixed formation. Again, just throwing out ideas. _________________ Neal
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Dobbsy	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:23 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am Posts: 4499 Location: Melbourne, Australia	I do think Lion's idea has some merit. If we can only buy commanders for formations by having to buy Crisis upgrades as well we should make it so the Crisis upgrade can come with a commander. Maybe we can make a Shas'-XXX ?Formation?? Say, 2 Crisis suit "bodyguard" units including a Shas'(of either ilk). This way we can add the commander and still take 2 more upgrades. Afterall, if the Tau are supposed to make use of "large formations" to help manage BMs then it reduces the number of units because the Commander is an upgrade.
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HecklerMD	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:04 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201	I dont have a problem giving some sort of leader/coordinated fire combo to a unit in the AMHC, similar to how each of the other two cadre choices get leaders. I would object, however, to "up-gunning" the "command tank" in a fashion to the IG.  Tau would give their (tank) commanders more radios, not more guns, so they should get leader/CF/and perhaps an inv save (but probablly not) I would support the idea of preventing the "AMHC Commander" from being added to anything but a regular Hammerhead (RG or IC) and not in a Swordfish or Stingray, so that the loss of a single vehicle does not mean the loss of all those assets.  Spread 'em around, so to speak.  Battlesuit commanders can trick out thier ride, thats Tau-ish, but up-gunned tanks are IG-ish. Stat proposal: Commander  add 1 Tau Shas'Blah  Commander to any Hammerhead  +25 points Tau Shas'Blah Fluff Type: Character Speed: N/A Armour: N/A CC/FF N/A / N/A Weapons N/A Notes:  Character, Coordinated Fire, Leader (+Maybe: Invulnerable Save)
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Steele	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:37 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	Quote (HecklerMD @ 07 Dec. 2005 (06:04)) I dont have a problem giving some sort of leader/coordinated fire combo to a unit in the AMHC, similar to how each of the other two cadre choices get leaders. I would object, however, to "up-gunning" the "command tank" in a fashion to the IG. ?Tau would give their (tank) commanders more radios, not more guns, so they should get leader/CF/and perhaps an inv save (but probablly not) I would support the idea of preventing the "AMHC Commander" from being added to anything but a regular Hammerhead (RG or IC) and not in a Swordfish or Stingray, so that the loss of a single vehicle does not mean the loss of all those assets. ?Spread 'em around, so to speak. ?Battlesuit commanders can trick out thier ride, thats Tau-ish, but up-gunned tanks are IG-ish. Stat proposal: Commander ?add 1 Tau Shas'Blah ?Commander to any Hammerhead ?+25 points Tau Shas'Blah Fluff Type: Character Speed: N/A Armour: N/A CC/FF N/A / N/A Weapons N/A Notes: ?Character, Coordinated Fire, Leader (+Maybe: Invulnerable Save) The choice of the Swordfish I suggested came in objection of someone who stated that Tau get "better" Equipment when climbing in Ranks -> Firewarrior - Crisis/Broadside Suit. The Choice I made would be obvious to everyone that asks : Where is the commander Tank? For me it doesn?t matter in which vehicle the Commander is.Thus given that the Swordfish has upgunned capabilities is therefore mere coincidence. Cheers! Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:00 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Heh... If we go forward with this, I fully expect to see a Heckler army with Shas'Blah painted on the side of one of the hatches.   I cannot disagree with the logic here. I think an invulnerable save would be unnecessary for any tank commander. I do like the idea of more radios and what not. A tank commander at +X for leader is interesting and directly addresses the problem we are talking about the Tau having. A tank commander at +Y fore leader and CF may be over the top. I honestly don't know. I just don't see a guy in a tank coordinating the stealths, the crisis, and the armor. A guy in the dragonfish - sure, he has a full staff with him in there manning the systems and data, but the guy in the tank 'seems' like he'd have his hands full managing his own group of tanks. I would be interested in testing the leader tank commander, "Shas'Blah" though. You guys have convinced me of that. Cheers,   _________________ Rob
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Steele	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:58 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	So , we got you,heh? What would be the starting Points? 25 Points at maximum for Leader only I suppose,or? Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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Lion in the Stars	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:22 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm Posts: 1455	Leader seems to run at 25 points by itself.  Marine Leaders start at 50, and they have some extra goodies. I would like to point out that the Tau make great use of AIs, and using the Slammers as an example, an AI can take care of a LOT of the minor piddly details that bog an officer down, and enable him to run his unit (although even the Slammers used a dedicated command tank).   OK, dedicated command tank, not, repeat NOT upgunned.  Hammerhead Command tank upgrade +25 points, adds leader.  I'd really like to have a Co-fire Command Tank for say +50 ('course, ideally this would require a 'new' turret, with more space for a comms guy, or maybe just the old standard different paintjob for now). _________________ "For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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nealhunt

Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:44 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Leader seems to run at 25 points by itself.  Marine Leaders start at 50, and they have some extra goodies. I don't think you can pin it down, as it really varies widely and in most cases it is simply built into another cost so you can't really determine how much of it is due to Leader.  As examples: Leader doesn't make up 25 points of a Nobz' 35 point cost, Commisar's are variable in number and built into the overall army cost, CSM leaders are built into the formations and while virtually identical to SMs but would reasonably cost less because of lesser durability. _________________ Neal

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Tactica	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:59 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	NH, What do you think Leader is worth to a Tau commander in a tank? Steele and Lion, Same question as NH and... What formations do you think a commander should be allowed for? Steele, You've proved a point and I can believe tau tank commanders exist. I just don't know what the right approach is. I'm willing to try Tau leaders in tanks to see how they impact the list and see if they solve the current BM management problem with the armor. So - perhpas that's a long way to say, you've proved the problem to me and you may be on the right path to a solution -we shall see.   Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Lion in the Stars	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:17 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm Posts: 1455	Well, since I started thinking Slammers, it'd be a 25-point upgrade to a basic Hammerhead, not the upgunned Swordfish.  That may be a little high for just 'leader', but 'leader + co-fire' is definitely worth 50 points. I actually want a full-blown command tank, with a bigger turret on the model, to represent the additional comms gear and crew, for the 'leader + co-fire'.  FW will probably say 'no', but I may be surprised. I'd say that only a Cadre would have the 'commander' upgrade, whether it's a Crisis suited commander stand mixed in with the FW or more Crisis suits, or a tank commander for the Hammerheads.  I think that a contingent should not be able to get the command upgrades. _________________ "For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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Nerroth	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:41 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	Quote (Honda @ 06 Dec. 2005 (01:12)) I would agree with Neal on this... Or Nerroth/Gary, as the case may be... Assuming you were agreeing with myself or with Neil! (Sorry if I'm not in the best mood recently, I'm feeling a bit bleh!) Anyway, I don't agree with the idea of a shas'el in a HH command tank - perhaps a shas'vre, or a nominated shas'ui. Why would a Tau commander run around in a tank when given the option of either sticking with the Crisis suit or staying in the command centre of a Dragonet (or Manta, for that matter...)? And when I referred to which formation would be called upon in a crisis, I had thought that the clue was fairly easy to spot! Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Steele	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:12 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	Gary, I think we also don?t want a Shas?el or Shas?o in a Tank. Just something that can act as Leader Function (Radios seem fine).  Maybe I?ll do some research on Modern Warfare Communications. Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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Steele	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:12 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	I found first notes at the Wikipedia: During World War II, the tank reached new heights of capability and sophistication. The early tanks of Nazi Germany were technologically inferior to many of their opponents' tanks in the areas of armour and firepower. It was in their tactical employment that German tanks dominated all rivals early in the war. German doctrine stressed the use of combined-arms involving mobile infantry and air support, and, after its surprising succes during the execution of Fall Gelb, the tactic of the Blitzkrieg (lightning warfare). This doctrine required the Germans to equip their tanks with radios, which provided unmatched command and control. In contrast, most light French tanks lacked radios, essentially because their battle doctrine was based on a more slow-paced, deliberate conformance to planned movements. This required fewer radios at all levels. French tanks generally outclassed German tanks in firepower and armor in the 1940 campaign, but their poor command and control doctrine made these advantages irrelevant to the final outcome.[B] More to follow. For all wanting to view it by themselves, here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_tank Her is a link to a Command Tank: http://www.rusarm.ru/p_prod/army/t_80uk.htm Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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Steele	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:23 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	It seems that on most Command Tanks used in History so far , the main asset to function was the expansion of its communications array. Based on that ,we have the historical fluff to justify the Command Tank for Tau. Here another Tank : http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type69.asp A chinese command version is the Type 69-IIB/C. Thoughts? Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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Steele	Post subject: Tau Leaders Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:14 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	Another thing I found to augment the proposal: FINDERS? - BATTLEFIELD MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS GLOBAL DESIGNER Anyone who wants to know more , here?s a link to a pdf document: http://www.giat-industries.fr/asp/us/pd ... inders.pdf Therefore , we have a similar technology already in use by the Dragonfish - Battle Matrix. Although I suppose the Bm is a more complex one than the thingy we want/would incorporate into a standard command tank. By using technology we don?t even need a real living beeing to act as "Leader", this fine piece of Software may answer most of our questions and needs. Cheers! Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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