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General musings on the Tau list.
RedDevil
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:57 am 
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I have some general musings that I wanted to throw out there to get some feedback on.  They cover a range of topics, so as to not all get lost, I will throw them all in here.

1)  
a)  Orca:  What sort of evil prescident would be set if we allowed the Orca to act as a skimmer if it stayed landed till the next turn.  This way it would behave similarly to a Planetfall/skimmer version, but would retain the ability to fly off table again in the end phase.  Unlike planetfall though, it would be vulnarable to AA when landing or taking off.
b)  As a bomber with its Burstcannons in pup up/down turrets, shouldn't it have 360 arc instead of fixed forward?

2)  Moray:  Why would you ever take the Ion Phalanx version?

3)  Shouldn't Kroot Master Shaper's be a 0-3 character upgrade?   10 stands of Kroot would be 50 kroot.  That would need at least 2 Shapers to guide that large a troop.  Also you may not even want a shaper, who knows.

4)  DragonFish:  Seams we are trying to make it a Supreme commander vehicle.  Seams like it should have a macroweapon attack, and a Invulnarable save to follow the tradition of SC upgrades.  Why not allow a Narwhal "Character" upgrade of sorts, giving it SC and Inv Save for 'x' amount of points?  This would remove the DragonFish as a model with totally unique stats, but could still be used to name a Narwhal with the Charater upgrade.

5)  Hunter missile and Tracer missile.  Are these the best names we could think of?  When I see:
-Hunter missile
-Seeker missile
-Tracer missile
on a stat line, I get a headache from seeing "missile" over and over again.

Could we say "Hunter SAM", to stop repeating missile and to give an idea of the Hunter's role.

And perhaps "Fasthawk" (an experimental highspeed ramjet missile) instead of "Tracer"?  Or say "GTM" for "Guided Tracer Missile" or something?  Really just a nitpicky point.
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RedDevil
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:32 am 
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Hmmm, almost two days up and no replies.  As to not distract from getting the current list solid enough to be posted with updates, lets ignore questions 1 to 4; unless someone wants to make comment on those.

As far as my last comment, does anyone else think we should change the name, or add a descriptive acronym after the name of both the "Hunter missile" and the "Tracer missile"?

IE:  Hunter missile  -->  Hunter SAM,  or   SAM
     Tracer missile  -->  G.T.M. (Guided Tracer Missile),  or new name such as the "Fasthawk"


It gives the weapon delivery system some more personality, rather than just a " missile" three times in a row on the data sheet.....
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Steele
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:52 am 
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Hi, sorry for no answering until yet.

I?m not sure about all, but I see what I can do:

1a) - not sure
1b)I agree with you, as it has a turret in it?s underbelly.

2) In every occasion you need a lot of shots, something like Horde Armies, e.g. Orcs,IG.
3) I?m not in with Kroot, but maybe some other has more to say, just wait. You?ll get answers.

4) See the Thread regarding it, it is already covered, at least for testing purposes.

5) Yes, maybe we could change some naming, but it seem not very urging at the moment, as there is a vital discussion up regarding Battlesuits.

Cheers!
Steele

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Legion 4
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:24 pm 
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After all the chatter, generally I like the T&K lists/rules ... but we're going to give both the Manta & Orca - PF & Skimmer  ...   :;):

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nealhunt
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 pm 
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1)  
a)  Orca:  What sort of evil prescident would be set if we allowed the Orca to act as a skimmer if it stayed landed till the next turn.  This way it would behave similarly to a Planetfall/skimmer version, but would retain the ability to fly off table again in the end phase.  Unlike planetfall though, it would be vulnarable to AA when landing or taking off.


I was actually just thinking of something similar driving home last night.  I was thinking about the IA version of the Manta and Moray as WE, Aircraft and I thought it might actually be a good idea.   Support Craft could function as aircraft (bomber only), but when "landed" instead of reverting to speed 0cm ground units as normal aircraft they would use the Support Craft rules.

Anyway, that would give them a lot more tactical flexibility and it seems characterful to me.

They are capable of normal aircraft-type speeds, right?  Is there anything un-Tau-ish about that concept?

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:10 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 18 Nov. 2005 (15:23))
I was thinking about the IA version of the Manta and Moray as WE, Aircraft and I thought it might actually be a good idea.

Neal, have you been taken over by a doppelganger?  :alien:

Orde

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:40 pm 
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That actually sounds like an interesting idea. It solves the planetfall issue which has been bugging me, but still lets them function in the same way...

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nealhunt
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:46 pm 
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Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 18 Nov. 2005 (16:10))
Quote (nealhunt @ 18 Nov. 2005 (15:23))
I was thinking about the IA version of the Manta and Moray as WE, Aircraft and I thought it might actually be a good idea.

Neal, have you been taken over by a doppelganger?  :alien:

Orde

Heh.  No.
(Of course, I probably wouldn't admit to if I had been, now would I? :alien: )

Seriously, I had heard all the negative bits about how IA had nerfed the support craft.  And I had heard Tactica's problem about getting Morays to be of use.  And these things do fly and come down from orbit.

It just seemed to flow stylistically.

==

Was there some other issue that you felt like I had switched on dramatically?  If so, good.  At least it proves I can change my mind.

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Tactica
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:56 pm 
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[quote="nealhunt,18 Nov. 2005 (15:23)"][/quote]
Is this the full extent of the proposition, or would weapons become nerfed due to flier status now?

I think giving these things the flier status makes sense, but I worry that their weapons will then become unprecidentedly powerful.

That would mean a reduction in their weapons as fliers, but when reverted to support craft status, they would still have flier ranges/strengths.

That would ultimately nerf their offensive effectiveness.

Their weapons, as support craft with support craft movement, are working quite well right now - the constant visibility has some serious side effects, but it does fit the perception/role the units fill - as much as I don't like admitting that. :)

The list as a whole benefits by the void these weapons fill. I don't want to see that lost.

I also don't want to hear cries of foul because of the proposed fliers with thier current magnatude of FP. As fliers, it woudl be "awsome" in the true sense of the word.

I'm on board with skimmers and Planetfall or Support craft and planetfall. Note: I'm even on board with them as fliers and Planet fall - however, aircraft bomber status will likely require a significant reduction in FP that I don't want to see happen.

Ultimately, flier plus support craft may reduce FP, add in game complexity for two modes of operation, and have a net decriment on their number 1 role IMHO - massive FP support.

Cheers,




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asaura
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:19 pm 
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The idea is intriguing. It would certainly add "character" to these "Tau titans". It would fit well with the design concept of "menacingly hovering above the battlefield" (as per the picture in the 40K Tau Codex, page 7.

Other fitting concepts are the "Mont'Ka killing blow", which is a pre-planned strike to an observed target of opportunity. A commander on the ground with eyes on target makes the call. This is different enough from a "regular" preplanned assault that it might well be represented by rules for additional flexibility.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:49 pm 
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I think giving these things the flier status makes sense, but I worry that their weapons will then become unprecidentedly powerful...


Yeah.  Good points all.  It's probably not workable.  Too bad.  I really liked the visual in my head.

Maybe something simpler that would reflect their abilities...

What about the ability to Planetfall without a spacecraft?

Too Orky?

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Tactica
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:13 pm 
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What about the ability to Planetfall without a spacecraft?


NH,

Well, they don't really fly great distances between planets themselves do they? I'd have to research the background supporting possibility of that.

From a gamey perspective, the spacecraft is a points balancer to the firepower dropping in. Game wise, I think its probably better to err to the side of caution with the points hit needed from spacecraft to use the ability.

Too orky - seems like something Tau wouldn't want to do too much - fly to another planet in a planetfalling vessel - protect us, put us on the ginormous space ship, then we'll drop in and suprise them - definitely 'seems' more tau to me. Don't really know though.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:28 pm 
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Tactica:  That's easy to handle from the pseudo-tech persepctive.  They've either left the spacecraft earlier and separated from it before dropping, or they took off from a remote base, went up to low orbit under their own power and are dropping back down.

But  I was just brainstorming.  If it doesn't work with respect to being un-Tau-ish, so be it.

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RedDevil
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:08 pm 
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Ah shoot, I totaly realize that what I typed wasn't totally clear to what I meant.  When I was thinking about giving the orca flyer status, I had no intention of allowing the to go on CAP, or Intercept, or bombing missions.  Just that they use the flyer rules to land, and disembart units, then they were able to act as a skimmer to skim over to another unit, pick it up, fly off the table in the end phase, and come in if it passes activations next turn to drop them off again.

Using Orca's, and Tau warengines to do bombing runs/intercept/CAP was totally NOT what I had in mind.....

I was more thinking abour using flyer rules to land when you planetfall, and using flyer rules to allow a "reverse planetfall" to allow you to planetfall again next turn.  Oh yeah, and they would be skimmers when landed.

Did that make more sense or did that make things more confusing?  (I think the rule would go something like this)

Tau - planet fall.  Tau craft with the "Tau - planetfall" rules use the flyer rules to land.  They are not able to do the followin actions: CAP, Intercept, Ground Attack, or air assault.  Once landed, they behave as a normal ground unit (skimmer in this case).  They may also take off as normal in the end phase, and carry with them any blastmarkers they acrew as per the normal aircraft rules.  They also follow the normal aircraft activation rules when "offboard".


Something along that line, though I am sure the actual printed rules could be even more streamlined.

Comments?
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asaura
 Post subject: General musings on the Tau list.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:18 pm 
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I don't understand what would be the upside with what you're proposing. A more fleshed out example of play could be helpful here.

I already use the Orca as a bus, using the regular transport aircraft rules:
Turn 1) Orca lands, troops debark, Orca flies off.
Turn 2) Orca lands, picks up other troops, flies off.
Turn 3) Orca lands, troops debark, Orca flies off.
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