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Stealth Teleport http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5420 |
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Author: | asaura [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:15 am ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
I say we do NOT add Teleport to Stealth. The Tau already have a very cheap Orca to ferry folks around the battlefield and we also have the Tigershark + Drones for small insertions. Adding Teleport to the list will just make it easier to abuse the thing. The infiltration abilities of Stealth troops are already modelled with Scout (Garrison), First Strike and with their fast movement. |
Author: | Tactica [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
Honda, Asaura voices the concerns people had previously with the teleport ability being added to the stealths. Scout plus teleport basically. I disagree that first strike has anything to do with the stealth's infiltration, but that's besides the point. Just playing devils advocate, one could ponder whether teleport or scout are better suited for this formation. From a 40K perspective, both are actually justified, but in this particular case - we are talking about balance. I think the consensus is to play the formation, get feedback, and see if the formation now works with the minor reduction in points from v4.1 to WIP v4.2.2 Cheers, |
Author: | N0-1_H3r3 [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:13 am ] | ||
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport | ||
Scout plus Teleport is always something to be wary of - it almost happened with the Swooping Hawks in the Eldar list. The general consensus was that it was far, far too potent - I don't think anyone should have the ability to simply appear in a loose formation in front of the enemy, close enough to force them out of the scouts' larger ZoC and disrupt a large portion of the enemy force all at once... |
Author: | Honda [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
Ok, I understand why a single formation should be discouraged from having scout and teleport and go with the flow on this one. However, the Stealth are a most unimpressive formation for the cost. Of the two abilities, I would much rather have teleport. I think as Tactica pointed out regarding first strike, if they were a CC type of unit that would be of value, but let's face it, we don't have those kinds of units in our lists, nor should we. So, I'm fine with leaving it as is for the points cost, but when we get to discussing changes on this list, swapping teleport for scout would be high on my list to discuss. |
Author: | nealhunt [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
Scout plus Teleport is always something to be wary of - it almost happened with the Swooping Hawks in the Eldar list. The general consensus was that it was far, far too potent |
Author: | Honda [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
Neal, All good points, but where I think I differ in my perspective is in how the Stealth suits should be used. From codex fluff, we know that the Stealths are "lone wolves" (my emphasis) who are not included in the normal operations and who specialize in special operations. Yes, they do a decent job of screening, however, they are not a screening unit, they are special ops and to tie them to another regular unit is not taking advantage of what they are truly capable of. Do regular units operate more effectively with special forces attached? Yep, they do. Is that how most SF units are deployed? No. Also, the fact that they come on the board (paraphrasing) with all the other Tau units means that yes, they can screen, but also be screened. So the way I would want to use this unit is as a deep striking independent unit (i.e. contingent), that roams in the opponent's backfield, using their markerlights to call in additional firepower to take out high value units. This mode of operation is very similar to Force Recon units in the Marines (U.S., not Space). Should the unit get the attention of the opponent, then they are able to melt away (i.e. with jetpacks) and should they actually get in contact or FF range, then they get a chance of shooting their way out (First strike) and potentially saving any hits that are delivered (+5RA). This operational use is consistent with what is described in the Codex. What we have now is a fairly expensive unit that is best used as ablative armor for other units. JMO, but that isn't a correct interpretation of either the Codex or of what a SPEC OPS force should be doing. You also ask, "How are you guys using them?". My question back to you is "Who is using them?". Based on what I've seen, not a lot of people are and I think it is fair to ask why. I think BaronP hit the nail on the head and was able to articulate what was annoying me about the Stealths. They are equipped and tasked (i.e. scout vs. teleport) incorrectly. My two yen... |
Author: | Tactica [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
Honda, First, please allow me to clarify my statement of: I disagree that first strike has anything to do with the stealth's infiltration, but that's besides the point. |
Author: | nealhunt [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
What we have now is a fairly expensive unit that is best used as ablative armor for other units. |
Author: | Tactica [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
NH, I can't disagree with anything that you've said in context. I also am not proposing we change anything. As Honda said, if the stealths don't prove worthy/valuable/balanced - whatever in the WIP v4.2.x list, I hope we can keep 'teleport' on the list of ideas to consider for this formation - that's all. ![]() My post was simply addressing why I _feel_ dissappointed in the once elite Stealth formation, as its realized in E:A Tau. To your comments specifically, I don't know if the forces night fight ability of the suits is accurately reflected in E:A. I would personally think the suits would become more affective at concealing them as distances between the enemy were increased and larger threats of scale were introduced onto the field. I could see an argument to say that these guys just can't be targetted until one is within X amount of range, just like 40K as the suits effects would be extended to this scale of conflict. In fact, I'd refer you to the flavor text in our XV15 Stealth Suits - they begin to describe how the suit works to conceal/hide the suit wearer... Of all the various Battlesuit variants of the Tau, the XV15 Stealth is the smallest - a Tau in an XV15 is hardly larger than a Fire Warrior in standard armour. However, this perfectly suits their role as infiltrators and saboteurs. In addition to the Tau Jet Pack, which is common to most Battlesuits, the Stealth suit has the unique capability of camouflaging its wearer. This is achieved by a number of holographic disruptors which are arrayed all over the suit and distort the wearer?s form, blending him into the background like a high-tech chameleon. |
Author: | nealhunt [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
Fair enough. I'll buy all of that. |
Author: | Dobbsy [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:24 am ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
From the sounds of it I think I'd much prefer teleport than scout. Pathfinders can screen as scouts so it seems more fluffy that Stealths should teleport. In my mind(and experience) teleport is a great tactical ability - keeps the enemy thinking when they're going to appear etc. and let's me take ground without having to advance across it. Plus, nearly every army has a unit with the teleport ability except Tau. My plan would be teleport them in then jump back if assaulted - careful placement of them could mean the enemy couldn't assault you even if they win initiative - more than I can say for Terminators (lose the Initiative and they generally get swamped - from my experience anyway) Just my 2 pesos |
Author: | Honda [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
while I was swimming laps last night (like you really care ![]() As Dobbsy pointed out, we would have the ability to stretch the engagement zone and keep the opponent offbalance. Now, you'd still have to use them wisely because if someone really wanted to, they could wipe them out pretty quickly. ![]() |
Author: | Tactica [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
Well listen guys, I'm hearing a lot of "we want teleport for stealths." I think its exactly what the formation would do in fluff and is exactly the role the formation plays. I also think this might be what it takes to make the formation usable - i.e. an elite trick. (forward deployed antagonists, disruptive force, forward marking, ambush, shock troop, etc.) Most importantly, I don't think we have a blance issue - but playtest will tell. So, if the significant majority is in favor of trying teleport on the Stealths in v4.2.x, I'm not opposed. NOTE: If we do this though, we have to move the points back to where they were... i.e. 275 / formation. I don't want to lower points _and_ then give them new abilities too. So give me some feedback gentlemen, of these two options, which do we want to test in v4.2? Please note that there is a point reduction in one, and teleport added to the more expensive. The proposed changes on the table are as follows and noted in red! So Option A: ===================== 6x XV15 Stealth = 250 Notes: Tau Jet Pack, scouts, RA, ML So Option B: ===================== 6x XV15 Stealth = 275 Notes: Tau Jet Pack, scouts, RA, ML, teleport |
Author: | Honda [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
Option B However, I'll just throw this out for consideration: Option C Same as B except, four stands for 225. Very fragile and unlikely to initiate an assault alone. |
Author: | Lion in the Stars [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Stealth Teleport |
Without a playtest experience to back it up, option B or C, preferably C. |
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