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Honda	Post subject: Stealth Teleport Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:10 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	Neal, All good points, but where I think I differ in my perspective is in how the Stealth suits should be used. From codex fluff, we know that the Stealths are "lone wolves" (my emphasis) who are not included in the normal operations and who specialize in special operations. Yes, they do a decent job of screening, however, they are not a screening unit, they are special ops and to tie them to another regular unit is not taking advantage of what they are truly capable of. Do regular units operate more effectively with special forces attached? Yep, they do. Is that how most SF units are deployed? No. Also, the fact that they come on the board (paraphrasing) with all the other Tau units means that yes, they can screen, but also be screened. So the way I would want to use this unit is as a deep striking independent unit (i.e. contingent), that roams in the opponent's backfield, using their markerlights to call in additional firepower to take out high value units. This mode of operation is very similar to Force Recon units in the Marines (U.S., not Space). Should the unit get the attention of the opponent, then they are able to melt away (i.e. with jetpacks) and should they actually get in contact or FF range, then they get a chance of shooting their way out (First strike) and potentially saving any hits that are delivered (+5RA). This operational use is consistent with what is described in the Codex. What we have now is a fairly expensive unit that is best used as ablative armor for other units. JMO, but that isn't a correct interpretation of either the Codex or of what a SPEC OPS force should be doing. You also ask, "How are you guys using them?". My question back to you is "Who is using them?". Based on what I've seen, not a lot of people are and I think it is fair to ask why. I think BaronP hit the nail on the head and was able to articulate what was annoying me about the Stealths. They are equipped and tasked (i.e. scout vs. teleport) incorrectly. My two yen... _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Tactica

Post subject: Stealth Teleport Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:25 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

Honda, First, please allow me to clarify my statement of: I disagree that first strike has anything to do with the stealth's infiltration, but that's besides the point. That comment was in direct response to Asaura summation of where 'Stealthiness' of the foramtion in question comes from: The infiltration abilities of Stealth troops are already modelled with Scout (Garrison), First Strike and with their fast movement.

I don't think First Strike in this case has anything to do with where our Stealthiness comes from. Whether its justified or not is a different topic and worthy of discussion.

Now, moving on...

NH and Honda, I could easily see where somebody would challenge that First Strike is a close combat bonus. E:A Tau don't get close combat bonus' - so why do E:A tau Stealth have a close combat bonus? From E:A only perspective, I would have a hard time defending that challenge considering the design principle for tau in E:A. Others have previously said that First Strike was crucial to the formation's utility, so I've left it alone. It has always bothered me though.

On a related note and personal opionin - I do not think the stealth are accurately reflected in EA at all. Frankly, they (and crisis) were one, and continue to be, of my biggest disappointments coming from a vast 40K background and veteren of Tau.

That, to me, is an injustice to one of our 'elite' unit types.

NH,

How do I use them you ask?

I continue to try and playtest with Stealths, but they do not fulfil a significant role beyond ablative damage and marker lights _to me_ that's something many units can do, and that's what Drones are for. Their disrupting abilty has its uses, but only if you can get your stealth to where the enemy infantry is - and keep them alive long enough. In E:A the formation is very anti-AP - which is good, but has lost its trick factor to stay alive and get into position quickly (short of scout). Scout is OK and flavorful, but garrisons are placed before main lines, so getting forward works, but doing so before knowing where the formation is needed has its downsides considering in 40K, the formation can Deep Strike (E:A teleport)

Frankly, and you guys are going to hate me, based upon the human auxilia precident, I don't understand why the heck Stealths are allowed markerlights and human auxilia are not! I've heard that human auxilia shouldn't have markers because you can only have one marker per unit of 6 men in 40K and that wouldn't equate to much significance in E:A.

Well, OK, but on that premis - theirs a case to be made that Stealths have no more right to a markerlight "in Epic" if a human auxiliary _unit_ doesn't have the right.

Furthermore - and not trying to stir the pot - but Firewarriors can be taken in 6-12 man squads in 40K. You can have only a single leader there as well. Only the leader again can carry the markerlight in these 6 man+ squads.

Pathfinders are the only units in the existing codex that have a marker light per model. (Forgeworld Further allows the Tetra, Command Crisis Suits and his Reteinue of Crisis, Heavy Gun Drones, along with Skyray, and Tiger Shark to have markerlights per model as well)

Now before you bite my head off, allow me to explain - in 40K, (our reference) the max squad size of Human Auxilia, Firewarriors, and Stealths are 6 man. All three squads can have a leader figure. The leader is the ONLY model in the squad that can have a marker light.

So I ask you, why should Stealth & Firewarrior units in E:A get Markers if Human Auxilia units should not? Shouldn't the standards be the same?

(The more I think about this though - the more it's a human auxilia question and not a Tau Stealth question - so perhaps I digress...)

Anyway, back to the point about my dissapointment in the Stealths in E:A vs. the elite quality of the Stealth in 40K...

In 40K (a historical perspective from whence the formation was created) Stealths are brilliant and feared by the enemy. They are used to:

1) disrupt the enemy (tons of fire, maximized by evasion)

2) Maximize Markers - (if the target is marked - per mark the burst cannons of 3 shots each go down from 4+ to hit to 2+ to hit at S5!!) (Note: Markerlights have a much wider array of value as they affect all weapons in 40K, not just guide missles as is the case in E:A.)

2) distract the enemy (fast moving, terrain ignoring, flanking)

3) draw the enemy out (have to be close to see them due to suit technology of 'stealth' - forces night fight vision levels - impossible to see them from outside of 36" on a 40K battlefield and the typical required range to get to see them is 21" - that equates to what _should be_ E:A Heavy Bolter max site range distance in E:A!!)

4) Infiltrate forward in deployment (E:A scout)

5) deep strike (E:A teleport) onto the field behind enemy lines to fire at tank weak, break artillery, eliminate snipers & heavy weapon formations, etc.

6) Evasion (E:A hit & run) to maximize their damage and minimize the chances of them being targeted or seen.

7) Assault force - what other 40K unit can fire 3x S5 shots per man at an enemy formation, and then charge in with 3x S4 attacks per model? A 6 man stealth unit will fire 18x S5 shots then charge in with 18x S4 Attacks.

Stealths, like crisis, are 3+ (power armor) save models in 40K. However, they also get Strength upgrade and an Attack upgrade from their stealth suit. These guys actually can fight h-t-h (like the crisis) pretty well once in base to base in 40K!

For reference, Firewarriors are toughness 3 in 40K and only have a space marine scout save of 4+.

9) Detect hidden troops - all battlesuits (Stealth, crisis, broadsides) have

So to have this our elite formations and specifically the Stealth formation lose
1) stealth limited targetting distance (unknown E:A precident)
*2) deep strike (E:A teleport)
*3) evasion (E:A hit & run)

Well - its dissappoiting. I don't know how else to say it guys. These are three of the major concepts that make the Stealth unit unique in 40K and give it a battlefield presence and role to be feared by adversaries.  

Its a real pain in the @ss to target in 40K and thats on a much, much smaller battlefield compared to E:A. One wonders how they are even seen on the E:A field by weapons that can target at 3+ times the distance that they are capable of being seen in 40K?

Losing Deepstrike means trick lost.

Losing evasion means trick lost.

So from my perspective - they've turned into ablative markers in E:A... They (like crisis) have completely lost their elite trick factor in E:A. (items *2) and items *3) pertain to crisis) OK - if that's the way you guys want it be and are happy with it fine - but wow, what a waste and diversion from what used to be prized elite foramtions in 40K.

So if there's not a balance issue of 'scout' and 'teleport' coexisting on the same unit, I would like to see that considered for the formation at some point. This would serve as a starting point to align them with their historical prowess on the field. I also would like to see a required distance for visibility rule for them considering what their suit actually does.

Howeve, like we've already stated, playtest them _as is_ in WIP v4.2.x for a bit with the previously agreed upon minor point reduction (25 points) from v4.1 to WIP v4.2.x and see if it was enough to make them valuable to the list and to maintain a role of what they should be doing for the list?

[OT]Just a side bar comment. I hear in the new 40K codex, crisis suits get cheaper - like they did in FW:IA3:TC, and Stealths will obtain all sorts of new weapon options - they will not be limited to burst cannon and leader with burst cannon + marker! ... not that this has any bit of imact on the E:A discussion above at all...[/OT]