Heh. I bet that is an unintended consequence...
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| Markerlight Question http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5417 |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
Since markerlights are now listed in the "weapon" section of a unit's stats, does this mean if all units with markerlights in a formation are suppressed then enemy units are no longer marked? |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
Heh. I bet that is an unintended consequence...
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| Author: | Tactica [ Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
Chroma, Background: ========= I added Markerlights to the weapons list in the datsheets to make it easier for folks to see which units had markerlights. In retrospect, this may have been a bad idea from a simplicity of markerlight rule perspective. However, I don't disagree with your point. Its very valid. Issue you raise: ============ This is interesting. First, I see no reason why a guy hiding behind a piece of space debris soiling himself, shaking nervously, or otherwise out of commission to the point that he couldn't fire - would be able to accurately use a marker light to paint a target... I never considered it frankly, but the point makes perfect sense to me (for one anyway!) Game Mechanics / Logistics: ===================== Presently, E:A Markerlights aren't 'fired' as they are in 40K. They work as a special rule and are just 'always on' accept as noted (march, broken). An E:A player in general checks for suppression when he/she is actively 'firing' a formation at a target enemy. Currently: ======= So since suppression is checked for when a formation fires, I'd say no, they aren't affected by suppression as presently they are a specil rule that works when the formation is or is not actively under fire orders. Now, I'm not saying that's the way it should be. Questions: ======== 1) Is it presenting a problem to not check for suppression on these units with ML or is it just point of confusion and there's not really a balance issue? 1-a) If its just a clarification thing, we could always just go with option C below to make sure players are clear. 1-b) If its a balance issue, I think we need ton consider some examples and see what can be done. I would guess that solutions will revolve around A), B), or D) below. Resolve: ====== A) Take Markers back out of the datasheet list since they are a special rule and not really weapons that fire - KISS approach B) Leave Markerlights in datasheet weapon sections and add detail in about how one goes about seeing if a marking unit is suppressed or not even though its not firing. May get wordy. C) Leave Markerlights in datasheet weapon sections and add a line to either 1) Markerlights or b) Design Notes section which states that Markerlights are not really weapons and are not firing per se. Thus they are not affected by suppression. They are only listed in the weapons section for easier reference. D) Other? Good discussion point and good catch Chroma. I'd love to hear an elaboration from you on the Questions above. All - thoughts, comments, and/or suggestions anyone? |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:17 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question | ||
Hello Greater Good! ?;) First, how this came up: my opponent in my two recent Tyranid games had Armoured Cadres with Skyrays in them and one turn he moved his Tetras far away, and the Skyrays were the only markerlight units within 30cm of then enemy, but the Skyrays were at the back and suppressed, so we weren't sure how to do it. ?Re-reading the description of Markerlights wasn't clear, though in the end we let him mark targets, maybe it was a drone-mind doing it while the Fire Warriors were worried by the shooting! So, in answer to the question, I believe it's a clarification issue. ?Having the markerlights listed as "weapons" would imply that they are suppressable, yet, at least in EPIC, they are more of a special ability than an attack form. To keep that clear, and since it's always 30cm, I believe a unit having markerlights should just have it listed in its "Notes:", just like other non-suppressable abilities like "leader" or "skimmer"; it's a special effect the unit has on the battlefield. Now, from a realistic/plausibilty standpoint, I totally agree that they should be suppressable, hard to line up the laser pointer when your face is in the dirt! I'll have to get my Tau Codex back from the friend I lent it to and re-read how they're described in there. ?My 40k Tau force has never actually seen a battlefield, I just enjoy painting them, so I'm not totally up on the rules. ?*laugh* The two Tau vs Tyranid fights brought up a couple other things as well, I'm going to review my notes and try and post some things later this evening... unless the girlfriend has other plans... |
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| Author: | Honda [ Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
Count me in for Option A Also note that at least on the Skyray, the ML's are driven by drones. So, given the different possibilities of having to discuss this, I'd say KISS. |
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| Author: | Tactica [ Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
Honda & Chroma, I thought about this on the way home. In effort to make reference to markerlights easier, I've caused this headache. So to avoid the wordsmithing, the easiest way is to just go foward with option A. Remove markerlights from the datasheets as weapons. I'm all for fixing things that are broke.... I'm also all for _not_ fixing things that _aren't_ broke. Plenty of playtesting has shown markerlights to work the way they were/are. Therefore, if an attempt to make which units have markerlights becomes more of a headache and creates problems that weren't there, then the obvious resolution is - to just keep them as special rule notes just like they were. I'll option A, which is the way it was listed.... i.e. notes only. Glad Chroma caught this now. Cheers, |
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| Author: | Honda [ Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
Agree, good catch. This could have become a real pain in the neck to explain to someone who wasn't familiar with the list. It's probably a good thing to keep in mind as we are making adjustments to remember that not everyone we play will have the history of this list, so the less we have to explain, the better. |
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| Author: | Legion 4 [ Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
KISS ... it usually works ... M/L are the Sci-fi version of Ground Laser Designator or GLD (pronounced "Glid"), we had them in some of our units ... like Scouts. I like the M/L concept ... makes the T&K, the most Modern Hi-Tech Epic army vs. the Eldar; who are just Hi-tech !
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| Author: | Tactica [ Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
KISS is back in WIPv4.2.4 thanks for comments everyone. Cheers, |
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| Author: | asaura [ Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
Boy, do we have short memories. Markerlights for list version 4.1 were first written as susceptible to suppression, which was soon removed as fiddly. http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic....ID=5643 |
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| Author: | Tastyfish [ Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
Seems to me, if the markerlight is the thing actually firing the missile - they can't fire unguided but instead are just an AT weapon on the firewarriors (calling them in from tanks, off field bases, small satellites with seeker racks) then it makes sense to have them being supressed and as a weapon. If its just a benefit for a tank that is actually the unit firing them then I wouldn't have them being supressed. There is has been a lot of mention about the Tau's relative lack of AT (in previous lists anyway) as it is - making their most common AT weapon supressable twice seems a disadvantage. Having markerlights supressed but seekers not, seems a little complicated and could make formations like the Piraha artilery a little powerful, especially as you are unlikely to be supressing everyone in the unit - long as you have one the target counts as marked. Special rule seems best to me |
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| Author: | Tactica [ Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Markerlight Question |
Agreed, They are all back to special rules in WIP v4.2.4 if CS chooses to go forward with it. The only reason they were listed in the weapons section in the first place was to make them easier for people to find when looking to see which units did or did not have ML. As it complicates things, no reason for putting them their IMHO. Cheers, |
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