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Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5416		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Hey all,

Just curious about something that's always been on my mind and bugged me enough to formulate the question into a post.

Topic - Tau Plasma Rifle

IG PLASMA GUNS
============
In 40K, a 5-10 man storm trooper squad can have up to 3 models with IG Plasma _Guns_ (12-24" range) or Plasma _Pistols_ (12" range).

In 40K, IG Plasma Guns and IG Plasma Pistols are Strength 7 shot and have an armour piercing value of 2 (terminators and marines get no save if it wounds) and it can get kill the bearer if you roll a 1 to hit firing a single shot or kill a guy on a 1-2 roll to hit if you are firing it twice.

IG Plasma Pistols in Epic:Armageddon are used by IG Storm Troopers, just like IG in 40K.

In Epic:Armageddon, IG Storm Trooper's Plasma Pistols receive 1x AP5+/AT5+ per stand in Epic.

TAU PLASMA RIFLES
===============
In 40K, a crisis, broadside, or HQ and Retinue can have 9 models and 6 of which is drones where 3 are the suits. Those three suits in any of the units can have up to 3 twin-linked Tau Plasma Rifles.

In 40K, Tau Plasma Rifles are Strength 6 shot and have the same armour piercing value of 2 (terminators and marines get no save if it wounds). You also have the option to fire 1 or 2 shots with this weapon. It does not get hot either.

Tau Plasma Rifles in Epic:Armageddon are weapons used by crisis and broadsides, just like they are in 40K.

In Epic:Armageddon, Tau Plasma Rifles receive 1x AP5+ and no AT value at all. (AP 4+ if twin-linked)


IN GENERAL
============
Plasma in 40K is typically used to punch holes in heavily armored infantry (marines and terminators). Its also used to blow up heavily armored vehicles (leman russ, predators, etc). Its very common to use this technology against hidden artillery like griffons, manticores, earthshakers, and defilers for example.

This typical Plasma technology use is regardless of whether you are talking about Tau, IG, Chaos, Marines or anyone using Plasma technology in the 41st millenium.


FINALLY, THE QUESTIONS
===================
1) Why isn't Tau plasma useful to in AT role, even if only AT6+ in Epic?

2) Should Tau Plasma Rifle technology in Epic:Armageddon really be something like the following? (augmentation in red)

Weapon, Range, FP, Notes
Plasma Rifle, 30cm, AP5+/AT6+, -
Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle, 30cm, AP4+/AT5+, -
Commander Plasma Rifle, 30cm, AP4+/AT5+, -

3) Why or why not?


I thank you for your thoughts in advance,
Author:  Nerroth [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Funny, every time I think of another plasma race, I think of the Eldar...

Mmm, starcannon goodness!

(Which leads me to suggest comparing Eldar tech - which is closer to Tau plasma tech than Imperial plasmas are - if a need is percieved to fiddle with the Epic plasma specs)

Bear in mind that the Tau stands using those rifles are not having to worry about the odd weapon malfunction and likely have more plasmas per stand than Imps do...

Gary
Author:  Honda [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Well, personally, I think we have enough balls to juggle at the moment and I don't know that what we are talking about right now is a game breaker.

Would prefer that we hold off on this for now and maybe put it on a 4.2.x parking lot to be looked at later.

My two yen...
Author:  asaura [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Why stop at AT5+ or AT6+? Why not go all the way and make them have 15cm range? In fact, why not make smart missile systems 15 cm range?
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Nerroth,

Eldar definitely have more advanced Tech than Tau. They are aliens, but a far more advanced alien race than Tau. Comparing to their tech is not a good idea.


Honda,

I agree - good parking lot item. Just a talking point I wanted to mention.


Asaura,

LMAO!

- IG Stormtropers use _pistols_. They are 12" range in 40K. Thus, they equate to 15cm range in Epic.

- IG, like many other imperial races, also have access Plasma Guns (24" range) and Plasma Cannons (30" range) in 40K.

- In the conversion over to epic, 12'" 40K guns go to 15cm in Epic.

- In the converssion over to epic, 24" & 36" range guns go to 30cm in epic.

Thus, 40K Tau Plasma Rifles and IG Plasma Guns convert to 30cm range in Epic based upon existing design principles.

That said - No worries Asaura, it was just a talking point.

Thanks for the feedback gents,
Author:  asaura [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Quote (Tactica @ 04 Nov. 2005 (22:42))
- IG Stormtropers use _pistols_. They are 12" range in 40K. Thus, they equate to 15cm range in Epic.

- IG, like many other imperial races, also have access Plasma Guns (24" range) and Plasma Cannons (30" range) in 40K.

- In the conversion over to epic, 12'" 40K guns go to 15cm in Epic.

- In the converssion over to epic, 24" & 36" range guns go to 30cm in epic.

Thus, 40K Tau Plasma Rifles and IG Plasma Guns convert to 30cm range in Epic based upon existing design principles.

Pages 92 and 190 of the Epic:A rulebook say plasma _guns_. I can't find a reference to plasma pistols.

This is yet another case where adhering too closely to 40K creates problems. Epic:A is a different game.
Author:  Tactica [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Asaura,

Actually, I fully agree with you. I'm glad you checked it out. I just looked up a few myself. It says plasma guns, not plasma pisotols. My fault.

I also noticed there's a precident for many 24" range guns -Lasguns, bolters, Multi-melta - etc that all have 24" range in 40K. These are all 15cm in epic.

I fully agree with you, 24" range guns in 40K are indeed are typically converted to 15cm range guns in Epic as the standard and I was incorrect for stating that storm troopers carried pistols as well.

I appoligize. ?:blush:

I will add, "Should 30cm Tau Plasma rifles and Tau SMS become 15cm range weapons in Epic due to other 24" range 40K range weapons in other races (Marine multi-melta, IG plasma guns) becoming 15cm range guns in epic?"

Now I wonder if Epic Tau range adjustment is JG's way for accounting for the 40K evasion 'jump forward, jump back' ability?

Regardless, in the case of Tau Plasma Rifles, we have an AT and Range abstraction. I don't know if JG knew that or not. _Perhaps_ he intentionally eliminated one to boost the other. I would only be guessing. If we revisit this - we should take both issues into account. I'll note it as such.

Regards to the Epic and 40K being different games, I completely agree this montra. I'm fully aware that _concessions and abstractions_ are made between systems and not all is equally converted between the systems. Just look at fliers for starters. Look at the points costs for IG Basalisk and IG Manticore in 40K then look at them being the same points in Epic. I could go on and on. There's a host of differences and abstractions - I fully conced that and agree with you on this concept.

I enjoy both games very much and the established background and history they share, I see no reason for us not to avoid _gross_ abstractions of established franchise concepts if and when we can avoid it. Now, I'm starting to _echo_ everything I've previously said. I'll stop there. I've said my piece on this perspective.

Hats off to you on this correction, it was a Good observation Asaura. :8:  :8):  :alien:
Author:  Nerroth [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
I'm well aware that in general Eldar tech is far superior to Tau tech.

The difference between the two in terms of their plasma weaponry is less pronounced, however.

But either way, no need to panic about the spec as is...

Gary
Author:  colonel_sponsz [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Quote (Nerroth @ 04 Nov. 2005 (21:40))
Which leads me to suggest comparing Eldar tech - which is closer to Tau plasma tech than Imperial plasmas are...

Who says the Eldar have been lending tech to the Tau?  All lies and unfounded roumours I tells ya.  Prominent Farseers feeling a sense of protectiveness towards them?  Unexplained leaps in technological ability?  Mere co-inicdence.

:alien:

Orde
Author:  Nerroth [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
I didn't say anything about the Eldar lending the Tau tech - I'm saying that the effects on the battlefield of Tau and Eldar plasma weapons aren't wildly dissimilar, and in contrast to Imperial tech, neither race's plasma weapons blow up in their faces!

But the Alaitoc did step in to smash Waaash! Scraghurtz at a crucial period of the Tau's history, apprently at the behest of the Bentu'sin - who called in a few old favours, it seems - so I'd imagine the Alaitoc are keeping tabs on this rapidly-developing species...

Gary
Author:  Tactica [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:13 am ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 04 Nov. 2005 (23:50))
Quote (Nerroth @ 04 Nov. 2005 (21:40))
Which leads me to suggest comparing Eldar tech - which is closer to Tau plasma tech than Imperial plasmas are...

Who says the Eldar have been lending tech to the Tau? ?All lies and unfounded roumours I tells ya. ?Prominent Farseers feeling a sense of protectiveness towards them? ?Unexplained leaps in technological ability? ?Mere co-inicdence.

:alien:

Orde

ROFLMAO!
Author:  Steele [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Wouldn?t  it be somewhat "Un-Tau-ish" when they use massed plasma weapons? I would leave it to the Commanders, as they maybe excentric enough to take this kind of Weapons.
But speaking of Weapons, what are the so called Rail-Rifles? I saw them on Pathfinder Models on the US Site of GW. Are they reserved only to Pathfinder? Are they used/incorporated in any Epic:A stat line? If not, could they be an alternative to your Plasma Weapon? Kinda cheap Broadside?

Steele
Author:  asaura [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Quote (Tactica @ 04 Nov. 2005 (23:11))
Now I wonder if Epic Tau range adjustment is JG's way for accounting for the 40K evasion 'jump forward, jump back' ability?

IIRC, the Crisis suit weapon stats do not come from JG, but from Jervis. I distinctly remember being a tad pissed off that he didn't alter the references to "I" in the Tau list designers notes when he took over the list from Jervis. I think the "I" was put there by Jervis, and never touched by JG.

It's pretty clear what the intent behind Crisis weapons stats is: it is to force you make tradeoffs in engagement range. You get ok firepower to 45 cm, better AP at 30 and very good firepower at 15 cm. Individual weapon profiles get tweaked around in service of how Crisis suits perform on the Epic tabletop.

Tau weapon ranges and to-hit numbers are both artificially inflated. At the same time, Tau FF values are kept low. This is done primarily to make the Tau use Advance (and CF) as the primary "attack" action, instead of Engage by most other armies. If we just modelled Tau after their 40K stats in the same way as other armies, they wouldn't have low FF values. They'd have very high FF values.
Author:  colonel_sponsz [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Steele:  Rail rifles are pathfider weapons and are on their stat line   (Rail Rifles,30cm,AP5+,Disrupt) but there aren't any models yet.

The 40k rules and background is here: http://uk.games-workshop.com/tau/railrifle/1/

Orde
Author:  Steele [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau vs. Imperial Plasma Technology - Concept
Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 05 Nov. 2005 (11:43))
Steele: ?Rail rifles are pathfider weapons and are on their stat line ? (Rail Rifles,30cm,AP5+,Disrupt) but there aren't any models yet.

The 40k rules and background is here: http://uk.games-workshop.com/tau/railrifle/1/

Orde

Didn?t look at the stats actually. But thanks.

Steele
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