Tactical Command
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Manta Model Question
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5413		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Steele [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Hi,
had a short game against Marines last night, but had to stop it due to time limits. In a situation came following question from my opponent (a new one): From where do you measure if the MMD is in FF Range - usually we measure from center to center. He argued that it?s a very large Model , giving the size of it?s wingspan you must be almost under them to engage it. So my question is : how do you measure the Ranges of Large Models?

Steele
Author:  Legion 4 [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Range to target ... just like in real life ... that's how we do.  If it is in range it can be shot at ... IMO !  :;):
Author:  CyberShadow [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
As a rule, we usually use range to base, or to the edge of any part of the actual model, whichever is closest.
Author:  Clockwerks [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Technically WE's ranges are measured from the weapon of the firing model to the base of the target model.

Adam
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Weapon to any part of the target model.

Unfortunately, the Manta is big... really big... no bigger than that, its gi-normous.

:p
Author:  Lion in the Stars [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Yeah.  From the pics, it looks to be almost twice the size of a Titan base.  My proxy Manta (a spare devilfish) is definitely suffering from that problem.
Author:  Steele [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Quote (Tactica @ 04 Nov. 2005 (17:10))
Weapon to any part of the target model.

Unfortunately, the Manta is big... really big... no bigger than that, its gi-normous.

:p

Maybe we sould make a consensus on this. For most models it does not pose a problem as they fit mostly on their bases if any, so targetting from base to model is no problem. But if someone comes along and says : hey- this model is darn big, so i dont need to target the main body, the wing would suffice. Then Folks we have a precedence, as no other model has this dimensions in width for Epic. What should I tell him? Yes, it is and you may assault it as well!? But you have to come in FF Range or better in BtB!
Ok, I will have to lift it a little bit, to allow you to deploy your troops, but hey! After all it flies high in the air.
Sorry, for sarkasm. I would like to hear your oppinions. And , I know it?s big!

Cheers!
Steele
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Steele,

I would ask you to take you a look at the E:A book for guidance on this one. It sounds like its a touchy issue for you and the fella in question. So I'll quote the text I'm thinking about that might pertain to your situation and work to establish an Epic precidence that I think you were describing...

1.7.3 ?Zones of Control
All units in Epic have a zone of control that extends 5cm in every direction from the model. Models mounted on a stand may measure the zone of control from any model on the stand.


Note: this references model, not stand or base. It further establishes that models are to be used if mounted on a stand.


1.9 SHOOTING
DESIGN CONCEPT
Shooting Conventions
The following principles apply to shooting:

Measuring Ranges: You must decide with your opponent how you will measure the range between two models during a game. The method used by the author (and the default you should use if you can't agree to an alternative) is that a weapon is in range if any bit of the attacking weapon is in range of any part of the target mdoel (or at least one of the models on a target stand).

Line of Fire:

Pre-measuring:

This again establishes that for shooting, range is specifically from weapon to model.

SPECIAL RULE
1.9.8 Barrages

[/b]Using Barrage Templates:[/b] Deciding which enemy units have been caught underneath a circular Barrage template is another one of the things that can cause endless arguments during a game. The method we use (and the default you shoudl use unless you have a different convention that you prefer) is that a unit is affected if any prt of the model falls under the template, or at least on model on a stand. In addition, templates must be placed...

Here, we see that model, not stand or base, targetting is the convention adopted by the author.


1.1 UNITS


No matter what their size, the Citadel minatures used to play epic are referred to as units in the rules that follow. Each unit is an individual playing piece with its own capabilities. A unit may consist of a single model tank, a gigantic war engine, or several infantry models mounted together on a single base, but in the rules all of these things are simply refrerred to as units.




This establishes that a single tank or war engine are officially represented in the rules that follow as unit. This will now become relivent...

1.12.3 Make Charge Move


Make the move normally, as described in the movement rules given previously. Once the move is complete, the engaging formation must have at least one unit within 15cms of a unit from the target formation. If this is not the case then the assault does not take place and the action ends. This cavet aside, units from the charging foramtion may move in any direction and do not have to head towards the enemy.




As we've defined unit, Measuring to a WE, which we know is a unit, is therefore legal.

1.12.6 Supporting Fire
In addition to units that are fighting from the attacking and defending formations, all units that are within 15cm and have a line of fire to an enemy unit that is involved in the assault are allowed to attack with their firfight values...


Again, as we've defined unit, Measuring to a WE, which we know is a unit, is therefore legal.

Hope that helps, cheers Steele,



Author:  Steele [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Tactica,
thanks for the work you put into this. The references you made are Rocksolid for me and work very well as they are written. I asked this one just to make sure that nobody can abuse the size of this model in particular, and I think that given the size it can be. So again , thank you. Keep it rolling.

Cheers!
Steele
Author:  HecklerMD [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Quote (Tactica @ 04 Nov. 2005 (16:10))
Weapon to any part of the target model.

Unfortunately, the Manta is big... really big... no bigger than that, its gi-normous.

:p

Which is why its awsome!

Its like a epic SUV!  :p

The BFG player in me wants to say measure post-to-post but then I slap myself and say "Wrong game, bad!  BAD!"
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Yep ... Tactica and I read the rules the same way ... range to target, ie.: model ... ie.: unit ... ie.: big models = big targets ... just like in real life !!   :laugh:
Author:  Nerroth [ Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
BFG is never the wong game!

I wonder: I'd assumed that the Manta's bridge is in the forward hull, and that the command/operations deck - for overseeing large-scale engagements - was the larger module in the centre. Does this sound right?


Gary
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Steele,

Glad to be of some assistance. That's what we're all here for.  :;):


HecklerMD,

LOL, PS - I knew Nerroth wouldn't like that!

Cheers all,
Author:  primarch [ Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Manta Model Question
Quote (CyberShadow @ 04 Nov. 2005 (10:40))
As a rule, we usually use range to base, or to the edge of any part of the actual model, whichever is closest.

Hi!

This is what I do, done it for years and it seems to be the least "argument generating" method.

Primarch
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