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1500 4.2.2 List http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5406	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Honda [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:59 am ]
Post subject:	1500 4.2.2 List
Now that we've got 4.2 a little more solid, I started playing around with the list to see what kind of force I could pull out of it. Listed below is what I came up with. The only departure from 4.1 is the inclusion of the Armor cadre. I'm planning on testing this in a map exercise this weekend and then against a real opponent in the next week or so. I don't have a lot of points to fiddle with, hence the "plain" vanilla approach, but is there anything obvious you think I'm missing? Thanx in advance! 1500 Std List Name Units Cost Hunter Cadre 8 x FW, 4 x DF 300 HH upgrade 2 x IC-HH 125 Stealth cont 6 x Stealth 250 Armor Cadre 6 x RC-HH 375 Hammerhead Sqdn 4 x IC-HH 250 Stingray Sqdn 4 x Stingrays 200

Author:	Tactica [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:48 am ]
Post subject:	1500 4.2.2 List
Honda, Good idea!! Glad to see someone fiddling with list creation! I don't have a lot of points to fiddle with, hence the "plain" vanilla approach, but is there anything obvious you think I'm missing?

500 points! (kidding) - you know Epic tourny games are 2K - 5K and some lists may become skewed at less or more points.

But looking at your 1500 points from the 'core' list perspecive and considering your 40K playstyle, (mech, fire discipline, & patient hunter) let's have a peak...

1) Hunter Cadre 8 x FW, 4 x DF 300
- HH upgrade 2 x IC-HH 125

2) Stealth cont 6 x Stealth 250
3) Armor Cadre 6 x RC-HH 375
4) Hammerhead Sqdn 4 x IC-HH 250
5) Stingray Sqdn 4 x Stingrays 200

Comments:
========
No supreme commander... that's going to hurt you.

5 activations are good, but small formations could really make you pay. You need some good infantry too hold objectives typically. Or larger formations. The FW will do that nicely, Mobile Armoured Hunter Cadre might be able to, but is still a bit light in size.

Only AA is IC, so enemy fliers are going to work you over bad, but if you can get the IC formation in the right place, you may be able to take 1 plane down a turn.

Its not going to take many kills from many of your formations and you are going to have broken formations all over the place! Could be a problem.

So now that I've critqued (and I did so before looking at what I could build... let me see what I would take if I played IG - because I know that force fairly well) Its only fair that you chew this force up too though!

IG SL 1500 points:
==============
Infantry Co (13 no armor but AP/AT fire stands) 250
Tank Co (10 RA MBT) 650
SHT Shadowsword (1 RA 90cm 3DC MW,TK) 200
Artillery Manticores (3x 2 BP Disrupt, indirect fire, R:300cm) 250
Thunderbolts (2 fighters 4x AP shots or 4x AT shots) 150

I would only have 5 activations.

I quickly realized that I wasn't going to have a supreme commander eiehter!

I have two formations that really have some range on you.

The single 200 points SHT is something I really don't take in a base list but had 200 points to use up. I figure its really good and putting a blast marker and almost guaranteeing dead tau tanks. I also figure its range will draw you to me. It's a great anti Tau overwatch piece.

The Manticores should prove to be a wrecking ball if I can get them hid - table dependent. They are just a staple. Disrupt with 300cm range and a 4BP two blast on turn 1 all for only 250 - I should break a formation a turn even with only 2BP on the even numbered turns. On the odd numbered turns, it will outright rid the table of one of those 4 tank formations. I can really just do some ugly things in smaller games with these guys. Especially if you have no way to get to them quickly!

The planes will have to steer clear of the Ions, but once I can rid you of those, I'll be in the sweet spot having free reign of the skies! I should be able to do light manouvres with minimal risk causing you to deal with a nuisance early, and possibly becoming a key formation late in the game (how many times were you looking for one more blast marker, one more kill, etc.)

I'm hoping the infantry can hold 1 or two objectives for me. That will be cover dependent and will require the stingrays die early.

I'm hoping the same with the RA Leman Russ. The lemans should be able to out shoot the Railguns and have better staying power due to the 4+ RA.

This would be a fun match up me thinks!

Author:	clausewitz [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:54 am ]
Post subject:	1500 4.2.2 List
With so few points it is difficult to cover all the options for sure. ?However, what strikes me is the lack of a Supreme Commander (heavy on points but with so few activations loosing one to a failed action test would be even worse) and no co-ordinated fire ability. (Edit: I was writing this before Tactica had replied)

Author:	Honda [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:00 am ]
Post subject:	1500 4.2.2 List
First of all, I'm very interested in the feedback. My purpose in picking a small list is two fold: 1. We have a new group starting up and we're just getting our armies together. The 1500 pts is there to be a mid-point goal until we step up to 2700. 2. While we are all "a-learnin' ", we can focus on basics and get those down before we get all hot to trot and start fielding all the toys. So, as in Jaldon's efforts, I want this first set of games to be more along the lines of scrimmages, so that we get familiar with our "teams". That being said, I don't want to just give the game away early, so points taken regarding the SC and fairly small size of my formations. I was originally thinking that if I was building small formations that others would be obligated to do that as well, but Tactica has proved that IG are quite adept at tipping over the apple cart. So, I'll go back to the drawing board and fiddle a little more. BTW, I love fiddling around with points and configurations and trying to figure out workable lists. I do it all the time, regardless of the system until I find sort of a core of units that I click with, then I tweak from there. Right now, I'm still trying to get a feel for how my list should come together to support my style of play...plus I need to get my head handed to me a couple of times so that I can see things in real life. I know I want the Armored cadre to be one of my core formations, plus the Stingrays will be a very good support choice, and I really need a Hunter cadre, but from there I kind of need to move things around to see how they work together (or not). So the feedback gets me past that "My List v1.0" learning pain quicker and on to the path I want to end up on. So again, I'll fiddle some more. After I get comfortable with 1500, then I'll jump up to 2700. Thanx!

Author:	Tactica [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:13 am ]
Post subject:	1500 4.2.2 List
I was originally thinking that if I was building small formations that others would be obligated to do that as well, but Tactica has proved that IG are quite adept at tipping over the apple cart. So, I'll go back to the drawing board and fiddle a little more.

Sorry chief. I was just playing devils advocate.

I know you won't be discouraged and I assumed that was the kind of feedback you were looking for. Keep in mind, IG are also a very good force. Eldar, Orks and Black Legion are all really good as well.

Black legion is still being tweaked so you might steer folks clear of those for the time being. Also, in Black legion, certain models (defilers, Deathwheels, Decimator, Obliterators) must be converted and can be a pain to new players. The list is very strong though. One should also be prepaired to invest in quite a few daemons as the army points total grows.

BTW, I love fiddling around with points and configurations and trying to figure out workable lists. I do it all the time, regardless of the system until I find sort of a core of units that I click with, then I tweak from there.
Its a good excersize I think. I encourage it and will participate as well!

I know I want the Armored cadre to be one of my core formations, plus the Stingrays will be a very good support choice, and I really need a Hunter cadre, but from there I kind of need to move things around to see how they work together (or not).

OK, so going with this... let me throw something out there and see if it sticks:

AMHC = Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre
AMHC = 4x Rail-HH, 2 IC-HH
AMHC = 375

FWC = Fire Warrior Cadre
FWC = 8 FW, 4 DevF, 2 IC-HH
FWC = 425

SrC = Stingray Contingent
SrC = 4 Stingray, 1 Skyray
SrC = 325

DfCV = Dragonfish Command Vehicle
DfCV = 1 DfCV
DfCV = 200

TSBS = Tiger Shark Bomber Squadron
TSBS = 1 Light Railcannon variant TS
TSBS = 175

Right, so check my math but I think I got it accurate. That's 5 activations.

I got your three must have formations in this list.

The AMHC gives you 2 AA shots and good anti-personell and also gives you a core of AT hunters. AA is a theme in your formations because you have no fighters. This formation will do the meat of your damage and should be used to land grab on the final turn if you can keep it safe.

The Break their Spirit formation in this list is the FWC. I intentionally did this because it has the most models, and is probably the least threatening to your enemy. On the other hand, the 2 IC-HH are a threat and increase your AA blanket. You'll want to keep the infantry holed up but in a forward position to blanket markers if the opportunity arises. Your Markers will set up your seekers on all the DF and make the formation have more potential vs. AT in tight situations.

Your SrC will serve as an anti-infantry base, but will be easy pickings if you let them get in the open. The Skyray will give you a mobile marker light with this formation. It will also add to the AA cover blanket.

The DfCV will not be a gunboat, but you'll get your Supreme Commander. It also brings a minimal amount of AA to the field and has a GM macro-weapon if you can set it up. This guy is also not a crux piece to your mission, so can serve as a lure if need be.

Finally we come to your hammer blow. the Tiger Shark light railcannon variant. This will be your workhorse when it comes to enemy SHT that could cause you pain. You'll have to make a path for it though. You'll have to use it as a latter activation if the enemy has AA or fighters (and he will likely have one or the other!) Once you rid the sky's of AA, you will have a mean pigeon to barge its way into an effective ground attack role.

vs. the IG list I posted, this list would do some damage. You would have to hope he went first, and then you'd have to wait out the fliers. Once his fliers activated, you could go hammer the shadowsword or the manticores with your TS bomber. It would be a tough call and would depend upon the terrain, however, my gut tells me the manticores would have to go early - unlimited range effectively with disrupt could really ruin your day. the shadowsword would wack something, but hopefully your use of pop-up and positioning would ward off any ill effects from it first turn. you would have to hope some of your AA cover took out one of the tbolts.

On the following turn, your AA blanket should be set and you could activate your flier sooner as needed and before the shadowsword fires off hopefully. That would provoke retaliation from the tbolts I'm sure, but your AA blanket should prove impossible to penetrate - or damn hard to penetrate anyway.

The lemans would be angry and looking for a target. You may have to bear the brunt of one of their salvos on turn 2 - but with any luck, turn 1 positioning allowed for turn 2 sustained fire pop-ups on the tank co or split between lemans and finish off shots on the shadowsword worst case.

Turn 3 should put you in a position to eliminate the biggest threat - and hopefully the tbolts, manticores, and shadowsword are either broke or dead by this time. Nows the time to crush either the IG (probably holed up in a building) or the Lemans.

The Lemans have either ben on OW and have been wrecking you, or they just went onto overwatch waiting for you to make your move.

Chances are that your stingrays probably died by now and possibly the DfCV as well. These are probably your easiest two formatons for the IG to eliminate quickly.

With any luck, you have infantry, tanks and planes to deal with the remaining IG infantry and IG Lemans. Those two formations can cover a lot of ground though. Each can deliver some pain from shooting if they get to sustain and id you are close enough. Objectives, terrain, dice, and fire discipline will throw this one one way or the other likely.

I like the potential in this list more than your first though. Again, IG are a tough nut to crack.

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