Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Tau Spacecraft for 4.2
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5402
Page 1 of 1

Author:  Nerroth [ Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

Hi!

Baronpiero has focussed his thread on Support Craft - enough if an issue in themselves - so I want to focus the Spacecraft discussions here, if that's allright...


OK, as regards the spacecraft there are 2 issues I have in mind:

A:The inclusion or no of the Custodian at 300 or more points, which I first suggested here
and
B:The potential addition of Tracer missile bombardment to the options for both the Lar'shi and the aforementioned Custodian, as proposed by myself here


The spec I had in mind for the Or'es El'leath is the following:

TAU OR?ES EL?LEATH ?CUSTODIAN? CLASS BATTLESHIP - 300 points

Type         Speed  Armour  Close Combat  Firefight
Spacecraft n/a      n/a       n/a               n/a
Weapon                  Range  Firepower  Notes
Pin-point attack        n/a     MW2+      Titan Killer (D3)
6x (or 8x) Tracer Missiles   n/a     MW6+      Tau Orbital Missile Barrage
Notes: Transport (may carry up to 18 Morays and/or Orcas plus any troops carried in them; Mantas (plus any troops in
them) can also be carried but count as three craft for transport capacity purposes), Slow and steady ? may not be used on turns one and two of a battle unless the scenario specifically states otherwise.


The italics above relate to the following suggestion:

Tau Orbital Missile Barrage

In keeping with the Shas'ar'tol's and Kor'vattra's shared concept of surgical warfare, Tau eschew the traditional orbital bombardment used by some other fleets. Instead, the Tau ship fires a salvo of guided missiles from its prow-mounted gravitic launcher. These missiles are guided to their targets by markerlight-armed ground units, in order to maximize their ability to lay waste to suitable enemy formations.

On a turn when a Tau spacecraft is in play, choose a marked enemy formation anywhere on the table, or an enemy War Engine (marked or unmarked, as with Pin-point Attacks the starship's sensors may only target such larger vehicles from orbit). This formation may be targeted by the starship's Tracer Missiles, recieving the standard +1 markerlight bonus should the target formation be marked.


With the above, the Lar'shi's stat would change to:

TAU HERO CLASS CRUISER (VASH?YA CONFIGURATION) - 150 points

Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Spacecraft n/a n/a n/a n/a
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
2 x Pin-point attack n/a MW2+ Titan Killer (D3)
4x (or 6x) Tracer Missiles   n/a     MW6+      Tau Orbital Missile Barrage
Notes: Transport (may carry up to 6 Morays and/or Orcas plus any troops carried in them; Mantas (plus any troops in
them) can also be carried but count as three craft for transport capacity purposes)


So, I have 4 questions:

1. Do you want to see the Custodian in the list?

2. Do you want to add the Missile Barrage option to Tau spacecraft?

3. If yes to 2, do you believe that the cost of the spacecraft in question should rise by 50 points each?

4. Is there anything else you'd like to see happen to Tau spacecraft in 4.2?


Please post your rants...comments/suggestions/criticisms here!


Gary





Author:  Tactica [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:30 am ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

Nerroth,

My inital comments are here:

Linky link

That said, I think the idea of a second larger ship is one worth pursuing. I think the tracer cluster could be potentially handy in larger games and has an interesting possibility to fill a role in larger incursions.

Regarding the hero, I prefer to leave it at 150 the way it is.

Author:  Nerroth [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

Ok.

I should perhaps have been a little more thorough in my reasoning as to why I wanted to see the Custodian and the Tracer barrage incorporated into the list.

Now, these ideas developed in my head more or less concurrently - with a fair bit of overlap, as you'll soon see - so I'm going to discuss the reasoning behind both ideas together.

Firstly, I wanted to add to the spacecraft options for the list, using the Qath'fannor (resin Tau fleet) as a source, since we already have a ship from the Ileath'fannor (metal Tau fleet) - a ship which handily can be taken in both fleet lists, I might add! As we already have a cruiser-sized ship in the list - not to mention that the specs for the Il'por'ui (Emissary) and Lar'shi'vre (Protector) are still in dispute, while the Or'es El'leath (Custodian) may only see changes which are irrelevant to its potential use in Epic - I settled on the Custodian as that ship.

However, while the Or'es El'leath has a considerable increase in transport capacity over the Lar'shi (Hero), it has half the number of Ion Cannon shots available in comparison to a Lar'shi. For a ship worth 300 points, this seemed like a lot to ask from a potential Tau gamer who would have to wait until turn 3 to use it at any rate!

Then the issue Tactica has mentioned regarding the T'au list's relative lack of MW and AT fire came to mind. I wanted to figure out a means of providing a reasonably limited amount of additonal MW fire, without unbalancing the ground assets or changing the specs of established unit types. It struck me that going with the idea of orbital missile strikes would be a way of reconciling the issue, while simultaneously adding a little more justification to the option of taking the Or'es El'leath over a Lar'shi.

Of course, since the Lar'shi has a gravitic launcher also, it stood to reason that that ship should also recieve an amount of missiles relative to its BFG missile strength - the idea was that the starship would be launching missiles over a wide enough area to target enemy formations across a number of concurrent battlefields - which is why you can't call on all 60 missiles a Lar'shi fires per turn! (Think of the 1-turn-only Avatar thing in the Eldar army, the molten one is jumping from battlefield to battlefield on the same planet, fighting when and where needed)

The above line would allow the justification of a Lar'shi having 4 or 6 Tracer shots, or the Or'es El'leath having 6 or 8, we can work out a balanced figure without worrying too much about the BFG side of things, as long as the relative values of each ship's salvoes are consistent.

Also, it would allow the Lar'shi to help in dealing with more than just WEs - I could see a formation of marked Russes or Basilisks as suitable targets, for example - but only conditionally (as you'd need to mark any non-WE formation if you want the missiles to be able to hit them!)

In my mind, an Or'es El'leath at 300 with 1PP, 6-Manta transport capacity and 6-8 Tracers seems reasonable, a Lar'shi with its 2PP, 2-Manta transport capacity and 4-6 Tracers may or may not be alright at 150, perhaps the Tracer salvo could be an optional +50 point extra if 150 is too cheap otherwise?

I hope this helps you see where all this is coming from, please tell me if I'm crazy or not!

Gary

Author:  Tactica [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

Nerroth,

Thanks for the elaboration.

In summary: It looks to me like your main desire is to incorporate another ship model as it sounds like you are a BFG fan and would like to see more cross-over. Along the way, you're thinking maybe a more fluffy weapon system to fill a missing barrage type role would be handy. Nothing wrong with that motive, but that helps me understand the perspective.

I think the lil hero at 2xPPC for 150 works. The idea to give him a +50 upgrade option to take the gravetic missles is probably a better idea. That would allow the Hero to be playtested with the upgrade, without messing with the base ship that has proved to work. Good comprimise and suggestion, this optional upgrade solution would get my consent. Though I must say, this is still a comprimise for me as I think the hero with 2 PPA is adequate and requires one to gamble in bringing it. If you want a gurantee that some of your weapons will work - more reason to buy the Custodian to get the Gravetic Launch bays IMHO. :)

The larger ship at 300 seems to be a good place to start with 1 PPA and 1 Gravetic salvo of larger scale at first glance. The fact that it can carry a boat load of Mantas is of interest in the event of a larger game, but may not be much of a consideration at the 2K-5K point game. Even at 5K, we get 1666 points of aircraft. If 300 goes into the Custodian, that leaves 1300 of restricted points in air caste. Two manta at 850 each are going to run 1700. So that puts you over. So one is never going to have 2 Manta's with a space craft in a 5K game, unless the mantas get a lot cheaper (not likely, nor should they IMHO!)

To play with 6 Mantas @ 850 and a Custodian @ 300 - you are talking about 5400 points of restricted air caste units. Multiply that times 3 to figure out how many points you would be playing to take advantage of all that transport capactiy = 16,200 point game. ;)

Even in order to play a proposed 2 Manta and 1 Custodian, you'd have to be playing 6K points minimum to get 2K of restricted air caste points.

So the custodian's points need to take it's transport capabilities into consideration, however, the weaponry is more of a concern for balance in your typical tournament E:A or even 2K - 5K game considering the Hero really transports a significant amount as it is.

A disection of the Hero should prove a good place to measure.

If 2 PPA plus 2 Manta transport on the hero is 150... What is that... 60 points per PPA plus another 30 for transport capacity on Hero? Assuming those values are accurate, conversion from Hero to Custodian would look something like this:

ATTEMPT ONE
150 = Hero
-60 = loss of one PPA to go to Custodian
+60 = Manta transport increase of additional 200%
+75 = Custodian Gravetic Launcher upgrade
======
225 = Proposed Points for Custodian Vessel

Now, perhaps I over valued a PPA... so maybe they are only 5 each and the 2 manta transport capacity on the Hero is also 50 points in value. So to take a Hero to a Custodian, the math would work like this:

ATTEMPT 2
150 = Hero
-50 = loss of one PPA to go to Custodian
+100 = Manta transport increase of additional 200%
+75 = Custodian Gravetic Launcher upgrade
======
275 = Proposed Points for Custodian Vessel

SUMMARY
Nerroth, I would guess your proposed Custodian is going to be somewhere around 225 - 275 the way you've designed it, when compared to the Hero as a precident.

Author:  Nerroth [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

You're forgetting that that 1 Manta also equals 3 Morays/Orcas in terms of transport capacity.

With a Lar'shi, if you take a Manta you are left with space for, say, 1 Orca and 2 Morays.

The Custodian allows for three times as many additional Morays and Orcas to be taken in a larger game - whether you'll ever use that capacity in a game or no, it's still there.


BTW, it would be 300% extra capacity for the Or'es El'leath - the added cost of the ship above 275 to rep this ability minus the actual use you're likely to get out of it would bring it to around 300 points.

The kind of choice is similar for a player of other armies with 2 choices in spacecraft, the Custodian, like the other BBs out there, is by default more suited to larger battles, as it should be.

EDIT: The +50 points optional upgrade for the Lar'shi sounds reasonable - I'd like to have the Tracer option with the ship if I were using it, I'd be happy to pay the extra 50 for that, and you can continue using the 150 point option in your own games!


And yes, I'm quite a fan of BFG as well!

Gary





Author:  Tactica [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

Gary,

1) not forgetting the Morays, but the math works the same. At 5K, you have 1666 points of air caste. If 300 goes to custodian, that leaves 1300 to spend as I see fit. So that's 1 custodian and 4 morays.... Or 1 custodian and 1 manta and 1 moray... or look at orcas if you like... doesn't matter how you want to break it up.

The point is, I basically get to take what I want to planetfall with out of a hero in a 2K-5K game, so the transport increase from Hero to Custodian is of value and should be considere, however, it may be a bit moot to some players if the only thing they get for the additional 150 points is loss of PPA and replace for Gravetic Salvo. May be something to consider.

2) An "additional" 200% increase - includes the base 100%.

100% + 200% = 300%

So depending upon whether you value 2 manta transport capacity at 30 points or 50 points - the transport value of your Custodian is 30x3 = 90 or 50x3=150. Add in your PPA of 50 - 60 points. Now add in your value for Gravetic Tracer Salvo.

3) PS - We like BFG too - but as a supplimental game to EPIC and 40K.  :D

4) Happy to playtest the final recomendation.

Author:  Nerroth [ Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

Supplemental to Epic and 40K?

We'll see about that...



Epic and BFG are my two favourite GW games, but in no way is either a supplementary game to the other in my book - and that 40K remark... well.. you're so cruel!

(sniff)

Seriously, if you want a proposal to playtest, try an optional 6 Tracer salvo for the Lar'shi for +50 points, and the 300 point Or'es El'leath with a str8 salvo - let us know if the salvo strengths play out well or need revision to 4 and 6.

Gary

Author:  Tactica [ Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

Nerroth,

Proposal: noted and will list accordingly on both accounts.

Orbital strike on Tactica's position...


:p

Author:  Xisor [ Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

Now as far as I'm aware, there are no other 'vessels' in the Epic Game System smaller than a cruiser. Perhaps, for +xpts the or'es el'leath can be 'upgraded' with Kir'la Attackships, which allow a further +1PP Attack. Basically adding the Wardens to the Custodian, they seem to go hand in hand.

I know I know, still, it seems worthwhile to make the suggestion.

Plus, btw, the Or'es El'Leath is a battleship(or if Sigoroth has his way it's a Grand Cruiser...).

Xisor

Author:  blackhorizon [ Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

Hey,

I'm an Epic noob, but when points are determined it strikes me the Custodian is rated at 300 points where as in BFG the Custodian will do around 310-320 points.
The points being so close is that intentional or mere luck????





Author:  Tactica [ Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

I would say "mere luck".

The systems generate unit point costs from different perspectives and completely independent guidelines. Certain weapons have value in BFG that are not even considered in Epic:A for example.

The spacecraft's consideration for points in E:A is solely based upon its surface impacting weapons and transport capacity.

In BFG, the more hits, speed, turrets, shields, lances vs. batteries, etc... all generate the points cost.

Hope that helps,

Author:  Tactica [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Tau Spacecraft for 4.2

Nerroth (and others!),

Take a look at the current WIP Tau v4.2.2 and tell me if I did the Custodian's flavor text justice.

Thanks

Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/