Tactical Command :: View topic - Tau Deflector Shield

Tactical Command http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5401	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Tactica [ Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:33 am ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
All, Baron P had an idea to revise the Deflector to a static save in a seperate thread concerning various changes. That got me thinking to pull that topic out into a seperate thread as its around a special rule that effects 3 units in our WIP v4.2 list (Dragonfish, Moray, Manta). Many have commented on this Deflector Shield topic previously and if memory serves, a variable save deemed more 'tau-ish' and fluffier to the deflective qualities intended in its vision. A static shield of 4+ invulnerable or 5+ invulnerable was desired by some, but more or less voted down - again, as I recall. I'm curious as to what opinions are of that now, in lieu of the 40K Manta coming out with a 4+ invulnerable save always on. Personally, I was convinced some time ago that it probably should remain variable (and less effective) vs. always on at top energy levels (as it would be with a static save). However, I do think the existing Deflector Shield rules can be cleaned up. I think it should be written to say that its a 6+ vs. weapons that both allow armor and reinforced armor saves to work normally (like AT shots). It should be 5+ vs. any shot that doesn't allow both armour and reinforced armor saves but does allow one of them (like Macro-weapon and Lance). It should be 4+ against anything that doesn't allow any armor saves (like Titan Killer). This is basically what it does today, but we don't use words like Macro-weapon and Titan Killer to limit its effects. In that regard, it becomes 'future proof' and will work against any future weapons of high power that are not really labled "TK" or "MW" but do just that effect. Eldar Lances for example have the net 'effect' of a MW against our Manta, but we only get our 'AT' invulnerable save of 6+ against the weapon because of the way the rule is currently written. So instead of the v4.1 text, Tau deflector shields work like an invulnerable save in all respects, with the single exsception that they will not always save on the normal 6+, instead the score is dependent on the impact engergy of the hit: The deflector will save on a 4+ agasint weapons with the Titan Killer ability (roll for variable damage first and then save agasint each hit seperately, as attacks might be only partially deflected), a 5+ against Macro Weapon hits, and a 6+ against AT attacks. It does not work at all in assaults, where the angle of incoming attacks does not allow for deflecting shots completely away from the craft.

I would change it to,
The Tau Deflector Shield is an invulnerable save that has no effect against base-to-base combat attacks, but against other attacks the invulnerable save roll will be 4+, 5+ or 6+ instead of only 6+. It's a 6+ vs. weapons that allow both Armor Saves and Reinforced Armor Saves to work normally (e.g. AT shots). Its a 5+ vs. any shots that don't allow both Armour Saves and Reinforced Armour saves but does allow one of them (like Macro-weapon and Lance). Finally, its 4+ against anything that doesn't allow any armor saves (like Titan Killer).

This works to
1) make it effective in FF (which the 40K shield does)
2) keeps it variable (which the 40K shield is better, always 4+)
3) makes it future proof - as intended when invisioned
4) and clean up/shorten the text in the rule

Thoughts?

Author:	asaura [ Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:13 am ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
References to AT, Macro-weapons and Titan-Killers are a lot easier to understand and get right.

Author:	baronpiero [ Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
Tactica Baron P had an idea to revise the Deflector to a static save in a seperate thread concerning various changes.

Just to avoid to mix-up things :8):

:

- I'm fine with the current shield considering the current stats for the Manta (DC8, Armor 4+ Reinforced).

- My suggestion in the other thread is made in the particular context of a change in Manta stats (DC10, Armor 5+ Reinforced), in which the current 'variable' shield causes an imbalance (Titan-killer weapons are rendered cost-inneffective).
> See: Manta & Moray thread

About your change:

- I'm okay with the new wording using the number of allowed armor saves rather than AT/MW/TK to determine the saving throw provided by the shield. It remains simple and ensures that the Deflector shield won't be negated by any future weird special rule like 'Lance' already has.

- I disagree on making the Deflector shield useful in an assault situtation. The Manta should retain some weaknesses to the Firefight Macroweapon ?specialists like Land speeders etc. My experience so far is that the Manta is not an easy take in an assault already, so I don't see a real need for such a power-up.

Author:

Steele [ Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:18 pm ]

Post subject:

Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept

Quote (baronpiero @ 31 Oct. 2005 (14:41))

Tactica
- I disagree on making the Deflector shield useful in an assault situtation. The Manta should retain some weaknesses to the Firefight Macroweapon ?specialists like Land speeders etc. My experience so far is that the Manta is not an easy take in an assault already, so I don't see a real need for such a power-up.

Why not? Again, take a look at the Eldar holofield, it works in Assaults too, and in both cases : FF and Base Contact. Beeing similar advanced, ok somewhat behind, why shouldn?t they work? Just to have something fragile? But on the other Hand the Eldars Field has to be used and if failed then you took the Hit. I have to think about it a second time...

Steele

Author:	colonel_sponsz [ Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
If you want a 'real world' justification of why the shield doesn't work in assaults you could say that assaults take place inside the shield, or at such close proximity that it doesn't have full effect. Orde

Author:	nealhunt [ Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
Since it would be 6+ against the majority of FF attacks, I don't see it being a major issue either way. Working v FF makes intuitive sense to me.

Author:	Tactica [ Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
All, Thank you for taking the time to way in. Asaura, There's plenty of overly complicated rules in E:A and various lists. I don't think this rule is overly complicated, and I think the gaming community is more than capable of understanding this as written in WIPv4.2. As proposed, it works to solve the v4.1 problem of not being future proof. baronp & Col_Sp, Reasoning is the deflector is first a lessor version of the 40K invulnerable shield to add a level of fluff to the E:A vehicle and balance the vehicles resilience in E:A. FF is representative of a 40K game. There is a precident of shields working vs. shooting and FF but not base to base. This precident fits with the Deflector in E:A. Manta was also overpriced in 4.1 for what it yielded in value to the list this minor change does help add value. NH, Steele, Agreed. Cheers,

Author:	colonel_sponsz [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
My point was really that once the game balance issues are fixed then the fluff justifications can be worked around them. Orde

Author:	baronpiero [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
Tactica There is a precident of shields working vs. shooting and FF but not base to base. This precident fits with the Deflector in E:A.

I just saw that in the WIP for 4.2. This sounds like a fine middle ground for a consensus. :cool:

And I like the fact achieving base-to-base would mean something.

Author:	Tactica [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
Col_Sp, I see - Agreed. baronp, Excellent.

Author:	clausewitz [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
I just saw that in the WIP for 4.2. This sounds like a fine middle ground for a consensus. And I like the fact achieving base-to-base would mean something.

With the Manta being a Support Craft, I was under the impression that it could always force FF, even when an enemy was in b-t-b with it, in the same way as skimmers can?

Author:	Tactica [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
Cw, True and good point. Same for Moray. Dragonfish has a Deflector as well, but its a skimmer and can also force FF. They are high in the air, hard to get to b-t-b with them. Although a good point, perhaps a moot point... In h-t-h firefighting, they are typically going to need 6's on the shield, so probably not that big of an impact there one way or the other as most attacks against them will probably not be MW or TK FF attacks anyway. So perhaps a non-issue. The base-to-base 'text' in the rule does seem unnecessary in lieu of this point though. Thoughts?

Author:	clausewitz [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
My point was that saying that the deflector would work for FF and not CC was rather moot, as you will never get to CC the Manta/Moray/Dragonfish. So really we saying that the deflector works in all assaults. I guess this particularly affects units like SM Landspeeders, SM Librarians, Demon Prince warp bolts, AMTL laser Burners and so on. It perhaps doesn't make much difference on its own, but as the Manta (and Moray) have had firepower upgrades in 4.2 are we adding one bonus too many?

Author:	Tactica [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
Cw, My gut tells me no its not an issue. The basis for my opinion is: 1) These things are really high in the air in practicality 2) there's an E:A precident of shields working in FF 3) the shield works in 40K & E:A FF is representative of 40K 4) From game impact - majority of FF is only defended at 6+ This said, I'm open to removing the FF verbiage if thier's significant concern that its too strong or imbalanced. Please advise,

Author:	clausewitz [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Tau Deflector Shield - Special Rule Concept
I can't comment on this with experience as I haven't used the Manta (nealy always play 2700 points, which doesn't lend itself to 850 point units). I just wonder if the Manta was so under-powered in its previous incarnation that the various upgrades to it only bring it up to its value.

Page 1 of 2	All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/