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Crisis unit survivability
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5366		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  Salamander [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
I'm new to the Tau list, so sorry if this has been covered before.

Why are Tau Stealth units tougher than Crisis units ?

A crisis unit has 3+ armour save (67% chance of save)

A stealth unit has 5+ reinforced save (67% chance of save)

So they both have an equal chance of saving against a normal hit.  Against a macro hit however, the Crisis unit is wiped out automatically, whilst the Stealth unit still gets one save of a 5+, making it much more survivable.

Add to this the fact that Stealth units only take AP hits, but the Crisis units are vulnerable to both AP and AT shots.

From this I would say that Stealth Units are far more survivable under fire than Crisis units.  I would have thought it should be the other way round !!
Author:  Tactica [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
I don't disagree with your analysis.

I don't understand it myself. I really don't think the crisis should be a LV specification. I realize in the old version of the list the crisis were darn hard and moving in and out of terrain uninhibited along with their firepower was pretty crazy. If I recall, the formations overall were much cheaper too. Now, we've taken it to the extreme. The crisis formation appears to be pointed correctly and the cadre works a bit better to balancing when purchased, but the LV specification makes them unnecessarily weak. My eldar opponent said it doesn't even make sense.

It means we have no really offensive infantry formation now and enemy's can plan on taking all AT against us. They can then take all vehicle armies. This completely ostrisizes our infantry short of their marker lights and allows the opponent to skew heavily towards us.

I'm definitely on the broadsides and crisis need to be infantry bandwagon... but I get the feeling I'm beating my own drum here just for the sake of making noise and not much else.

On top of this, Stealths are overpriced themselves. You get very little out of them short of MLs.

I'm glad you posted this thread.
Author:  asaura [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
Quote (Salamander @ 02 2005 Aug.,16:29)
A crisis unit has 3+ armour save (67% chance of save)
A stealth unit has 5+ reinforced save (67% chance of save)

No. A 5+ reinforced save saves against normal hits 1-(4/6*4/6) = 5/9 = 56% of the time. Your analysis is based on flawed math.
Author:  asaura [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
Quote (Tactica @ 02 2005 Aug.,16:48)
On top of this, Stealths are overpriced themselves. You get very little out of them short of MLs.

I'm tinkering with the idea of using Stealth as airborne assault troops. They have a good save, first strike attacks, are infantry and have only slightly worse numbers than FW. Haven't gotten a formation painted up yet, but I'll definitely try this. Should be ok against small targets and the possibilities for exploiting a late-turn air assault with these guys seem great.
Author:  Salamander [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
"No. A 5+ reinforced save saves against normal hits 1-(4/6*4/6) = 5/9 = 56% of the time. Your analysis is based on flawed math. "

Even so, with the reinforced armour save, and no vulnerability to AV fire, the Stealth unit still seems to have the advantage.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
It makes sense to me, actually.  A true stealth suit on a large battlefield would be highly survivable.  I think it would be one of those things that makes enough difference that the proportional effectiveness would be skewed compared to 40K.
Author:  Tactica [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
Whoa, whoa, whoa.... *From a 40K tau player*,

In 40K, the crisis has 2 wounds each, not one. They have Toughness 4, not T3, they have longer range weapons meaning they can stay further away from the enemy. They take a better compliment of weapons (Missle pod and plasma rifle usually).

Stealth need to get close to do their damage, they have an ability in 40K that causes them to always act as if it were nightfight when trying to target them, but they are very much an up in your face unit due to the limited range of guns.

My stealth make it through games sometimes. My Crisis almost ALWAYS live through my 40K games.

You see - in 40K, there's an evasion element like the eldar have in epic. Tau jetpacks have this ability in 40K. So the crisis stay alive much easier than the stealths as they can typically find a piece of terrain within the range of their guns that they can hide behind, pop out and fire, then hide again.

The Stealths on the other hand are infiltraters and deep strikers. They have to get very close and as a result have less options for terrain to use.

By design - a stealth suit has a MUCH shorter life span, but is hard to target until you get close.

Therefore, IMHO - crisis should be far tougher than stealths. I think anyone whom which plays Tau in 40K would agree.

The crisis are not in line with their fluff from 40K in epic as a result.
Author:  JimmyGrill [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
*40K time*

First, Stealth have the same move-fire-move in 40K as Crisis do. If it doesn't work for them in the same way, you might be doing something wrong.

They also have no shorter range - 18" for burst cannons. The only Crisis weapon beating this is the missile pod, the tastiest Crisis weapons (plasma at short range & fusion blaster) have only 12", so the range argument also doesn't apply.

Next, the Stealth field in 40K *is* very effective - on average, your enemy needs to be within 21" to see you, while your effective range (including the jump back) is 24".

Stealth may be of limited use against power armoured armies, but they massacre everything else, and the enemy needs to get very close to even see them.

According to my 40K IG opponent, Broadsides and Stealth are the most broken (read: effective :p ) units in the Tau army list.


*Epic:A time*

Apart from direct, isolated save vs. save comparison, I see no problem. Units must be taken in their entirety, and the 15cm range of Stealth is an important factor, compared to Crisis which can be effective at 30 or even 45cm.

I know the 5+ RA for stealth field is an abstraction, but it saves us yet another special rule and represents their invisibility well enough.
Author:  Tactica [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
JG,

1) Stealths have the same move fire move in 40k as crisis, that's true, but their weapons require them to be closer. Therefore, the terrain that's available to them is ususally less by comparison.

They also have no shorter range - 18" for burst cannons. The only Crisis weapon beating this is the missile pod, the tastiest Crisis weapons (plasma at short range & fusion blaster) have only 12", so the range argument also doesn't apply.

2) I'll disagree. They do have a shorter range. First, talented players don't typically take the burst cannnon option on their crisis as its a wast of points. Second, the same players don't take the flamer or fusion blaster as they are a wast of points and require you to get too close to the adversary. By far not even a short margin - the most common and coincidentally - effective option for tau crisis is Fire Knife i.e. that's a plasma rifle and a missle pod. Third, the plasma rifle is 24" range. The Missle Pod is 2 shots at 36" range. The plasma rifle is a rapid fire weapon and the missle pod is an assault weapon. BOTH of these weapons are longer range than the burst cannon.

Furthermore, the crisis suit (being a better suit than the stealth) offers not only a +1 Toughness to the wearer (unlike the stealth suit) but it also affords the wearer +1 wound (also unlike the stealth suit).

If that weren't enough of a difference, the Crisis suit is so much better than the stealth suit that it counts as a stable firing platform for rapid fire weapons. Therefore, a typical MARINE would move and fire a rapid fire weapon would only be limited to 12" range while moving and firing... however,  A crisis suit can move and fire his rapid fire Plasma Rifle at 24" range.


Next, the Stealth field in 40K *is* very effective - on average, your enemy needs to be within 21" to see you, while your effective range (including the jump back) is 24".

3) This is a true statement, and the stealths need it... unfortunately for them - they have to be closer to the enemy to use their weapons. The crisis can blast away hopin from 40" away to 36" away, dumping two S7 missle pods on you, then popping back into hiding. When you get 30" away, he hops out and blasts you with both S6 plasma and S7 missle pods.

The stealth suit can hop from 24" away to 18" away, then fire his S5 burst cannons and then hop away. By design, he's in harms way more and NEVER has the option to be 40" hoping to 36"... he needs the nightfight rule to survive!
Author:  JimmyGrill [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
Well, personally I feel Fireknife is overrated somewhat.

I use Missile Pods on dedicated Crisis units, and use TL plasma rifles on others. The thing with plasmas is, if you're not within 12", you're wasting their points, as you're sacrificing 50% of their power.

As plasmas are one of the only thing that can kill Marines and Termies in a cost-effective way, it is wise to use them to full effect.

Fusion Blasters also become more attractive by the fact that you have to be within 12" as well, and have become a more attractive tank hunting weapon in 4th edition.

Anyway, Fireknife is one possible way to use Crisis, not the only one and not the best (but the easiest of course). It isn't the last word in Crisis tactics in any event...

And concerning the extra wound/toughness/save: all well and true, but it won't help you against AT weapons, which'll knock you out with just one hit. And Just 1 casualty in a Crisis team makes a *big* difference.

So, enough 40k babble here :p
Author:  Tactica [ Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:10 am ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability

Well, personally I feel Fireknife is overrated somewhat.

Fair enough, but statistically - it's the best weapons outfit. My 4-man team went all the way to the finals with lists based upon it at AdeptiCon 2005 earlier this year. Another list based upon it won the TX GT not to long ago. Hop on Dakka-Dakka and explore the possibilities with weapon outfits, in the end, statistically there's only one option for the 'all comers' list - Fireknife.

The thing with plasmas is, if you're not within 12", you're wasting their points, as you're sacrificing 50% of their power.
Whoa! We'll have to disagree and leave it at that.


Fusion Blasters also become more attractive by the fact that you have to be within 12"

This is based upon a premis I cannot agree with. I'm sorry that I'll have to disagree with this statement too. FB only make a crisis subject to death and are to be avoided like the plague!


And concerning the extra wound/toughness/save: all well and true, but it won't help you against AT weapons, which'll knock you out with just one hit. And Just 1 casualty in a Crisis team makes a *big* difference.

(S7) Autocannon is an AP5+/AT6+ weapon.

It would 'insti-kill' a stealth (T3), but should not 'insti-kill' a crisis suit (T4) - in either game.

It's an AT weapon.

Think about it.  :;):


enough 40K babble here


OK - no problem. I hope you'll take the above into consideration though. I think its very valid input. Nuff said by me though. :cool:



Author:  netepic [ Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
Crisis suits almost always the one thing left alive at the end of my games against Tau..
Author:  xerxes [ Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
In 40K, Crisis suits in fairly dense terrain are at their best, while in totally open terrain are doomed. While we don't want to exactly duplicate their rules in Epic, I would be against any rules that made them play in the opposite manner. They should at least be able to gain protection from buildings/forests in a strategic-level game like Epic. Making them Light vehicles makes them easier to target, while in 40K they are one of the hardest to kill units in the game.

I am, however perfectly happy with their potency at different ranges. They should be better in firefights, but I understand the reasons they're not.
Author:  Steele [ Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
Quote (xerxes @ 03 2005 Aug.,14:54)
In 40K, Crisis suits in fairly dense terrain are at their best, while in totally open terrain are doomed. While we don't want to exactly duplicate their rules in Epic, I would be against any rules that made them play in the opposite manner. They should at least be able to gain protection from buildings/forests in a strategic-level game like Epic. Making them Light vehicles makes them easier to target, while in 40K they are one of the hardest to kill units in the game.

I am, however perfectly happy with their potency at different ranges. They should be better in firefights, but I understand the reasons they're not.

Amen,
this is the one thing I don?t like about Crisis. As I had a battle in City Ruins, I had to keep them on the Roads, open to any lucky shots. Although risking them sometimes into the Ruins, it was a sweaty thing, seeing them surviving all Dangerous Terrrain rolls. Same goes to a certain degree to skimmers. But that?s another thing, I won?t discuss here.

Cheers!
Steele
Author:  Tactica [ Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Crisis unit survivability
Xerxes, Netepic, Steele,

Agreed - the light vehicle on crisis and broadsides is causing terrain problems in our games as well.

BTW: since kroot stink, stealths are over priced and are not really offensive (just like pathfinders and firewarriors)

It means the opponent to tau should take mainly all AT weapons. Any AP weapons that he receives are just bonus shots.

After all, not only are the pirahnas and tetras LV's, but so are the actually offensive infantry - crisis and broadsides.

Thanks for considering a change in LV status on the crisis and broadsides JG. :)
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