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What units aren't "cutting it"?
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Author:  Philosophical Aun [ Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
Greetings!

I've found time during the summer to game with my mates and we've made several observations that I'd like to share with you, particulary about some units that we feel aren't as "effective" as the others.

The Kroot
Although they've definetly gained an upgrade from the v 3.0 list, as they can be increased in number. I feel main problem is their inability to sustain an assault, even with the support of the Tau. The enemy recognises the threat they cause, as one of the very few "assault" units of the Tau, and focuses their firepower on them.

The Gue'vesa companies provide far more "oompf" for the point value, if one wishes to have assault units, due to being cheaper on a unit basis.

Suggestion?

Well, I know we've already got far too many special rules in the list... but here is one thing that me and the guys tested out.

"Lay of the land"
The Kroot are masters at infiltrating and utilizing the terrain to their advantage. As such, an enemy unit firing on them recieve a -1 modifier to their to-hit rolls. This is in addition to any cover modifiers the Kroot may benefit from.

Now, this is quite a potent rule and it really does give the Kroot a greater amount of sustainability, especially when they "dig in", into cover.

Have any of you any other experience with the Kroot?

The Skyray

The Ion Cannon Hammerhead is IMHO, a superior choice as it is (although this may change with the change of the Ion Cannon stats...). Due to the difficulty of actually downing aircraft, being able to put up an umbrella of flak is usually the way to go. The IC Hammerheads can do this, while at the same time engaging other targets at ease.

Suggestions?

Well, we haven't played with the proposed change to the IC stats... but that might be the thing that solves the imbalance!
Author:  Jaldon [ Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
The Kroot:

It's the dice I tell ya, the dice :O  I have huge problems when I command Kroot, I just can't seem to get a handle on them, and they spend almost every game I use them in face down in the Dead Tray.

On the other hand Roger, our other Tau player, does really well with his Kroot Kindreds. Now I have both observed Roger using them, and asked his advice on using them, and I still can't get them to do anything. Now it is the dice because Roger has done the same things successfully that I fail miserably at, I just think the Kroot don't like me :angry:

No single Epic-A formation can sustain an attack on their own, all of them require support of one kind or another, in Roger's case he uses them in direct conjuction with a Warrior Cadre, and a Crisis Cadre. The sequence goes Crisis close and fire Kroot Assault goes in drawing in free FF support fire from Crisis, next activation Warriors exploit.

Hammerhead Ion/Railgun

Try the modifications, you'll field fewer Ion HHs unless your facing the Ork Horde :laugh:

Jaldon
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
*personally*I'm not getting milage out of,

Kroot
- the few times I've fielded them, they appeared to be proxy pin-cushions at best.
- I'd like to see a terrain modifier for armor here

Manta
- too costly for payback right now. I go for mooray and hammerhead detachments for the same role I'd like to have a manta for. I'm eager to try the new whiteshark and GM rules to see if it can fulfill.

Auxilleries
- I seem to always make other choices over these guys. I've yet to field them.

Ethereals
- I always go with crisis commander and don't take this upgrade much.

Pirahna's
- haven't figured out their nitch. I've fielded them several times, but I'm not sure I'm taking them with the right units. I like the tetras much better. (LOL, my same perspective of these two units in 40K too though!)

Stealths
- expensive, need points reduction to be valuable to me. Unfortunate too as I like them. I field one unit occasionally to rarely, where I used to always field them.

Heavy Drones
- I always take regular drones over these guys.

Narwhal
- Never getting my value out of this thing, but its never targetted/dies either so...

Formations I've yet to develop an opinion on
=================================
tigher shark
white shark
- both just due to the new rules for guns plus GM change

Formations I like and don't want to see changed
====================================
Hammerheads (favorite formation)
Swordfish (favorite vehicle)
Crisis (second favorite formation)
broadsides (favorite non-vehicle support)
pathfinders (favorite infantry)
tetras (favorite light vehicle/rules)
Firewarriors (second favorite infantry
Drones (favorite fluff unit/rules)
Barracudas (third favorite formation)
Mooray (second favorite vehicle)
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
Quote (Philosophical Aun @ 18 2005 July,03:17)
The Kroot
Although they've definetly gained an upgrade from the v 3.0 list, as they can be increased in number. I feel main problem is their inability to sustain an assault, even with the support of the Tau. The enemy recognises the threat they cause, as one of the very few "assault" units of the Tau, and focuses their firepower on them.

Do you think then they are like roughriders? the enemy know they re a good assault unit so shoot them up, and at armour 6+ rarely get to charge home? (Plus suffer from being an infantry taget in an AV heavy army.)

Note I would still up the points to 175 for rough riders:)
Author:  Tactica [ Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:15 am ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 19 2005 July,07:30)

Quote (Philosophical Aun @ 18 2005 July,03:17)
The Kroot

the enemy know they re a good assault unit so shoot them up, and at armour 6+ rarely get to charge home? (Plus suffer from being an infantry taget in an AV heavy army.)



Interesting observation. The 6+ armor definitely seems to make them the 'easy kill'. My opponents know they are my only hope for salvation in combat so regularly dispatch of them - even if it requires them going out of their way.
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
Are people not putting Piranhas with Stingrays to make a missile-based pseudo-arty formation?  That would seem to me to be the obvious use.  Adding 4 units with GMs would seem to be a nice boost and since the formation would rely on popup and/or markerlights the added vulnerability of LVs would be minimal.
Author:  JimmyGrill [ Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
I usually field Piranhas with mounted infantry or Hammerheads, so that they *reinforce* the seeker capabilities already in theformation.

Not sure if that is such a good idea with Stingrays, where they do increase the GM capabilities, but enhance AT instead of the AP main weapon.

And I would prefer the extra numbers in a formation which will benefit more from it, i.e. a frontline formation (like those cited) where casualties/BMs can make all the difference to breaking or not.

So from the outset, it doesn't strike me as too effective, though I shall try it out in a future game...
Author:  Philosophical Aun [ Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
I'd just like to add that we should be very cautious when it comes to increasing the power of our "weak" formations. Afterall, it may well be that the formations we compare with are too strong!

I speak here with the Narwhal vs Stingray comparision, for instance. Instead of powering up the Narwhal, we might depower the Stingray...as Jimmygrill suggested previously.

Perhaps the Kroot -should- be a weak formation, to show just how poor the Tau are at assaults.
Author:  Tactica [ Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
Quote (nealhunt @ 20 2005 July,14:15)
Are people not putting Piranhas with Stingrays to make a missile-based pseudo-arty formation? ?That would seem to me to be the obvious use. ?Adding 4 units with GMs would seem to be a nice boost and since the formation would rely on popup and/or markerlights the added vulnerability of LVs would be minimal.

Piranhas with SR are not generally my approach. I've fielded them with various units, but I typically count on their AP benefits more than their AT.

Hmm... I'll have to think about it. I just seem to get more milage out of other units/formations. I'm trying to schedule a game for this saturday (2 actually, AMTL and Tau) we'll see...
Author:  Tactica [ Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
I would like to revise my previous opinions. The broadsides and crisis need to be infantry, not light vehicles. They need to be able to get into cover positions and deploy into advantageous positions. broadsides firing down from building tops are holed up in a position in a tank factory seems right. Having these formations be affected by AT and AP shots is too brutal.

I remember in the old lists where the crisi were somewhat broken with jumping into buildings and doing what they could do, but that was also when they took doubles with no penalty and could get a lot more movement. Marker lights and GM's were different then. I think the broadsides and crisis REALLy need the flexability to get back into 'infantry' terrain cover.

Guided Munitions really needs to change. It's far too crappy right now. I'd like to see GM go to 4+ on non flying units. I'd like to see them as 5+ on fliers though. Most ground based units don't get to use sustained fire anyway so are constantly on the move.

I'd really like to see some BP damage from our bombers.

I'd also really like an answer for the dug in skimming armies of the eldar. Indirect fire would be great.

I'm not able to get milage out of the stingray or scorpion missle ships. The Range is almost not long enough with these things, and the GM component just isn't low enough to be effetive.

I'd like to see either a fix for pop-ups. or reinforced for our hammerheads. The unit is too key for success and to fragile to things skimmers and fliers.
Author:  Philosophical Aun [ Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
I think the broadsides and crisis REALLy need the flexability to get back into 'infantry' terrain cover.


Well, I've not had the difficulties you describe with my Crisis and Broadside suits. I am using plentiful amount of drones with my formations though, to soak hits and buff up the size.

Could you describe more in detail just how you are suffering?

I'd really like to see some BP damage from our bombers.

I strongly disagree, I feel the lack of BP for our Tau is very much a "feel" thing, to make us different. Also, I can't say I've really felt the need either....

I'm not able to get milage out of the stingray or scorpion missle ships. The Range is almost not long enough with these things, and the GM component just isn't low enough to be effetive.

I must say, I find it rather odd that you should find my very favorite units (units I even feel might be a tad too strong, Stingrays) are too weak.

Perhaps it is my opposition, but I feel Disruptive, Ignore Cover, 2x 5+ missiles is more then enough, especially with move +shoot range)

What I -have- been trying is to remove the Unguided Launches, giving the Guided Missiles a 2x range and +1 to hit... but this has had two big problems.

1. The enemy -knows- he has to kill anything with a Markerlight, and you won't have -that- many formations. The game becomes a hunt where you try to move your ML formations into position, and the enemy tries to kill them... ignoring other formations, which can barely hurt him.

2. The power of the GM increases exponensially in bigger games, since you have more... and can utterly wreck formations that reach you. In lower point games, its harder to get them useful.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
I thought Tau were all about the precise strike and minimal collateral damage.  BP weapons don't really fit that.  Am I mistaken about their philosophy?
Author:  JimmyGrill [ Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
Quote (nealhunt @ 25 2005 July,15:19)
I thought Tau were all about the precise strike and minimal collateral damage. ?BP weapons don't really fit that. ?Am I mistaken about their philosophy?

No, that's 100% correct.

I will go a very long way to keep BP out of our list  :blues:
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
CAS over FA for the Tau ... that works for me ... as that is the way they fight war ... :)
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  What units aren't "cutting it"?
Quote (nealhunt @ 25 2005 July,15:19)
I thought Tau were all about the precise strike and minimal collateral damage. ?BP weapons don't really fit that. ?Am I mistaken about their philosophy?

NH, Prophetic, and JG - I agree on BP... it was a bad recomendation. I resend it.

I agree, tau should not have the BP effect. I like the guided effect and it's quite fluffy.

It was a bit knee-jerk perhaps due to my choas and ig backgrounds. I was just down about the whiteshark lack of power and the fact that I got blown out of the water twice by SH eldar almost all vehicle list.

Disregard the recomendation for BP.

I do still think crisis and broadsides should be able to station in buildings. As it stands, pop-up can target our units uninhibited if they are only 'hiding behind' terrain. Intervening terrain is ignored with the pop-up so no 'cover' modifier. That means on sustained, they get their +1 too.

AP and AT can hurt these formations as they are light vehicles. they can't move into buildings and ruins are dangerous. On 'city' boards, it makes their mode of operation rather limited. Ironically in 40K, I love city boards due to the evasiveness of the list and jump packs. In epic, my tau appearently are hating city boards... very out of wack experience. All of which is basically a result of pop-up rules (especially when enemy can fire further) and light vehicle specs in epic.
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