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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:11 pm 
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Hey Kyuss? Thank you. I understand explaining that to every two pence yahoo that comes along can be exhausting. My own experience with the list 3rd phase is that it dies to a stiff breeze, provides tools that can be used to solve a range of puzzles, and can do really well if you play your cards right, and are lucky enough.

And is, at least in my hands, a real struggle to win with with against certain lists - I'm pretty sure I haven't won a single game against IG with it. Artillery is a real problem, and there is no real counter. The Vior'la list does not solve this.

kyussinchains wrote:
it simply broadens the existing list, which does go against the 'mission statement' of Epic development of strongly themed lists


You're now arguing that making a new list must be focused, take away options from the old list as it's adding new ones.

Alright; and apologies; this could be fodder for another thread.

But I will say that to me, this is nothing short of absurd. I can see the point from a list builders view - it is likely to make the game easier to balance, but from a players perspective it's just .. a bad decision.

We need more diversity, more play styles, less rock-paper-scissors, less this lists counters that list, more actual tactics. One of the reasons I love my tau army is that it plays very tactically; it gives me interesting tactical puzzles to solve.

If the game is won when declaring factions, why then bother with the whole miniatures and dice thing?

This is exactly what new lists should be used for: Developing new formations, new tactics, honing them, to be later folded into the old lists, for wider diversity on the table. Thus preserving the approval status of the old lists, yet allowing them to grow and evolve.

Limiting this stymies the game.

How does one go about changing that? How can a player make the devs see they're nailing the games foot to the ground?

Your formation concerns are Way more constructive that anything else brought up here so far.
So perhaps fireblade needs to be 50 points or more. I might disagree, but I'm just a player here. Perhaps the Supremacy needs to be limited to direct fire? have shorter range? These are concerns that can be addressed.


Just stating that this list expands on the old list, and should therefore be rejected out of hand, is regressive.

Sweeping assertions that the list needs to be less diverse is regressive. Sweeping assertions that to make something new, something old must be nerfed is regressive.

To answer a few players questions: Why should anyone play the 3rd phase list: Because it's approved, and thus tournament legal.
Why should anyone play the Vior'la list if it's not tournament legal? To play with different toys, and help hammer out the exact problems this discussion outlines.


It's getting late, you had questions, and I want to answer them, but, sorry, I can't now - we're going to bed. I promise I will come back as soon as I can.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:04 pm 
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I haven't said that this list 'should be rejected out of hand'.... that is quite a leap, if I may quote myself:

kyussinchains wrote:
I don't dislike the list at all though, a few tweaks and it would feel better :)


kyussinchains wrote:
Back to the Vior'la list, I like it, I actually do like the big battlesuits being included which is rare as I typically find the ever-increasing ridiculousness of GW design quite offputting (knights notwithstanding)


kyussinchains wrote:
I like the list, I think it has legs and I want to use it and face it


how did you get from those quotes in 3 separate posts in this thread to 'this list should be rejected out of hand'?

Parintachin wrote:
We need more diversity, more play styles, less rock-paper-scissors, less this lists counters that list, more actual tactics. One of the reasons I love my tau army is that it plays very tactically; it gives me interesting tactical puzzles to solve.

If the game is won when declaring factions, why then bother with the whole miniatures and dice thing?


I don't think it's quite as rock-paper-scissors as you make out.... I've been lucky enough to play epic most weeks for the last 6 years or so, and I've averaged 4-5 tournaments a year over that period, I've beaten most armies with most armies and I've lost to most armies with most armies..... I think it's much much more about player skill, and when you give good players more options to skew a list and take more of the good stuff, they become that much harder to beat

finally on this point:

Quote:
And is, at least in my hands, a real struggle to win with with against certain lists - I'm pretty sure I haven't won a single game against IG with it. Artillery is a real problem, and there is no real counter. The Vior'la list does not solve this.


I've had the diametric opposite experiences using IG against them... the tau have long ranged AT shooting to knock chimeras out and slow mechanised formations down, the Lance shooting to take out the reinforced armour, and massive AP firepower to shred those big IG infantry formations... last year at counterattack, RichardL took my 4k Steel Legion army apart, then stamped on the pieces, it seemed a dream matchup for him....

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:03 pm 
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A couple of things to bear in mind here;
  • The Tau took a very long time to develop the existing list to the point where it was working in an acceptable fashion. The FW were at the heart of the issue and are supposed to illustrate verry good short ranged firepower in average to poorly armoured troops.
    Creating a variant Tau list is likely to take a similar amount of time to balance to an acceptable level. This is because the various checks and balances are quite subtle in the way they work - markerlight being one of them.
  • It is not unusual for 'new' lists to be started adding desired toys thereby starting in a position of being OP, especially in the hands of a good player.
    What the guys are suggesting is that it may be better to establish the desired theme first and adjust the existing list to meet that theme.
  • I would add that EA tends to suffer from power creep precisely because toning down usually does not remove all the added 'power'. For What It's Worth I think it is better to start underpowered and add stuff, trying not to go too far.
  • The guys are also suggesting adopting the approach used in other races, notably Marines and Eldar, where the desired aim of a new list was achieved through relatively small changes.
  • A final caveat is to beware of over-boosting the stats of units, especially air units. That side of the game is easily over balanced to the detriment of EA as a whole. I would strongly advise leaving the Orca stats as they were, and encouraging the player to find ways of suppressing enemy AA capabilities - possibly through the use of other revised units . . .
Basically, I don't think people are trying to squash this list, it sounds quite interesting. But they may be questioning the way that the development is being approached.

So guys, putting the ball in the other court, what do you think the list ought to do differently from the existing list, and what sort of elements would that imply? ?


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:04 pm 
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I think part of the problem is that the starting list is pretty small, so as with the original 40K Farsight list - any extra restrictions you place on it become very restrictive. Though that might also suggest an option - and just have 2 support options per core rather than three. Vior'la forces are then more about firewarriors and crisis suits, and are less flexible than the generic Tau list is. So whilst they have more options in general (because there's not a lot to take away and still have a Tau army - though I do like swapping out the Tigersharks and Barracudas for Sunsharks and Razorsharks, and the switch from Kroot to Vespid), they're less able to include all of these options in a single force.

So perhaps the other attitude to take is that there is the approved list and ultimately the new lists with the extra units are kind of going to replace them once they get approved and things like Riptides don't feel like 'new' Tau units (they've had them for three years at the moment, out of a total of just over 15 years). In which case perhaps we should think about the new lists as being the ones that need to be separate from each other - might be a little easier to work out more distinct lists when all of the variants have more to play with rather than classifying the original Tau list that included everything the Tau had at the time as the Kauyon one, and the list with the new stuff as Mont'ka.

There is a new FW book coming out later this year, which is Kel'Shan vs an Imperial staging post on a forgeworld, themed around both sides either breaking out all their new toys (which Kel'shan is now apparently known for - the various Riptide variants and the Titan FW have come up with were originally the results of a mad scientist Fio based on Kel'shan).

it's not the classic Mont'ka vs Kauyon - but I could see a decent focus for the Vior'la one to be the upclose and personal Mont'ka list with the Fireblades and Riptides, backed up with the two new attack craft (in the 40K death from the skies book and the FW errata that went with it - the Razorshark is listed as a multirole ground attack/anti flyer type, rather than the pure interceptor the Barracuda is) and maybe the Stormsurge.

Whilst the Kel'shan list is the place with the bigger stuff and weirder experimental suits - Stormsurge, Hazards, Ghostkeels (maybe even replacing stealthsuits), sniperdrones rather than pathfinders, Riptide varients and the Supremacy armour. Tau version of the Knight heavy Skitarri.

At the moment I think I would lean more towards perhaps just tightening up the flexibility of Vior'la with limiting its access to support formations (whilst adding the new units in) if you were looking at something aimed at the principle of the thing rather than having a specific worry about what the list can do. I'm pretty happy with how it is, but have wondered what it'd take to make me pick 3rd Sphere over Vior'la.

Most lists I've seen in this thread would still work, or just have to drop a formation in favour of an upgrade or two (which might also make the fireblade more appealing - I've also found it more a nice thing to have if you can fit it in rather than a core part of my strategy, though that might change now I've got a second Orca). Side effect would be that the recent concerns about FF firewarriors in Orcas in a high activation list would be moot without cheap recon formations and a slight shift towards formations with more upgrades.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:34 pm 
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I think it is becoming clearer now. You do actually think the 3rd phase list is underpowered, and explicitly want the viorla list to be better overall.

Ok, well, let's take that as a separate concern and see what can be done with the 3rd phase list (if indeed it is found to be so). It will be a lot simpler then as at the moment you're trying to take on two arguments at the same time. Wanting the list to be better is being conflated with...

The entirely separate point you make about the range of tactics available to the army. Theres no doubt that the philosophy of designing variant lists with restricted playstyles has been controversial, especially as some lists are clearly more flexible than others. So let's acknowledge that. However it does have its advantages, mainly ease of balance, and is what the community has settled on and how EA was designed so changing this now is a tough argument to make. There is lots of history of why this route was chosen for the tau that is probably best not to go though again, as it will probably kill the chances of moving this list forward.

On the bright side, what you perhaps are forgetting is that having a different (rather than additional) focus/style for the viorla list would not make the patient hunter style impossible - you just use the original list for that. The presence of this list doesn't make the old one disappear. You just get to choose between the lists. What is a problem however is if you want to be able to do both things at the same time, i.e. plug the deliberate gaps in the 3rd phase list with new toys (mainly firefight, resilient air transports for air assault, and awesome artillery) That is what the objections to this current iteration are about. By all means include those things, everyone who has posted so far has been positive about some alternative things being available, but take something (a lot of things) out too.

Finally, on the fireblade/orca - think this has been put to bed now that this is a new very useful option that plugs a big hole in the list - just because something is not the best does not make it poor. But actually a simple solution to both viewpoints would be to remove it - after all if it's no good why have it if it's causing issues for other people? But just because nobody has come out and said it yet I will - if it stays the cost needs to go up. Let's remind ourselves: the orca is still at 150 but with a massive boost to its armour and has been paired with a new air assault formation. It totally transforms what both formations can do. Points is always tricky as some armies end up with discounts on their 'main' tactics, so think it'd be hard to cost until we see what it is worth to the tau list. Currently I think it is worth rather a lot for the reason stated above, ie it plugs a major hole in the list. For instance IMO the thunderhawk is a much better transport than the vampire for the same points, and the new orca is probably on a par with the vampire (much more resilient which is the most important thing, but less firepower).

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Interesting discussion. On this whole subject of lists being focused. Sure for a lot of small lists it's accurate, but it's just partially true for epic lists. The basic orc, marine, IG and biel tan lists have a ton of different units to choose from. Eldar most of all. The lists are very flexible for listbuilding (especially marines). They can effectivly play a lot of different tactics.

I don't find this to be true for my favorite army Tau in the third phase list. Definetly not to the same extent as the others. Some of this has to do with the inherent list design, i.e. you can't choose between a shooting or assault oriented list. Which is fine, because it's a defining part of the Tau list.
But the lack of flavor also has to do with less units IMO. I just took a quick look through the list in the Tournament pack. Biel tan has 36 different units, Steel Legion 30, Orks 25, codex 24 while Tau are at 22. More and new units adds flavor and tactical options to Tau. For instance with the new knight size suits, you're not forced to go to hammer heads to the same extent and can be a lot more agressive with them being more resilent (riptides). Getting some warengines and a small titan size unit (with the Ta'unar) is great for those of us who like the war engine/big things part of epic.

Yes the list has a lot going for it over the third phase list. Choosing between the two I'd probbably always go for Vior'la. But not for power reasons, but just for the fact that the list is more fun/has more tactical options. And I agree with Parintachin this is not a bad thing. Tau (third phase) are lacking in tactical flexibillity and would do well with more options. I (as someone who has played a lot of epic armies, but tau the most) would be happy to see this list replace third phase as the mainstay list for tau.

Also more units/options doesn't automatically make the list overpowered. Of corse we need to playtest them and find the right points and stats for them.

Some thoughts after the games I played with the list,

[*] It would probably be good to take the recon up to six units/175 pts like in third phase. 150 pts is pretty spamable.

[*] The orca is a fragile airtransport in third phase and can't bring marker lights with it. The added potential (11 units with ML (8x FW + pathfinders, not so much the FF4+ that's rather minor shooting is much more deadly) and suvivability (shield) in Vior'la warrants a price increase compared to third phase orcas. I would however prefere dropping the shield and keep the price. I isn't part of the background, orcas didn't have a defelctor in the Imperial armour Taros book.

[*] Matt said the KX 139 is going up to 250 pts. Haven't played it yet, but might need to go up more. I would have started it at 275 pts or even 300 (it's allways easier to lower a price than increase it.
Yeah it's not as versatile or well armoured as a warhound, but adds a lot to the list. The lack of barrage was intentional, and it's inclusion should probably come with a high price tag as it gives tau a new edge. The sun sharks aren't nearly as good (can't sustain, fragile, no IC) I always found it hard to deal with big infantry formation guarding an objective on overwatch in cover without sacrifizing a formation of firewarriors. This unit takes care of that perfectly (BP + IC!). Haven't played it yet though.


Last edited by Borka on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:11 pm 
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I would much like to hear what you Mr Shadowlord has to say about all this from the discussion of the last few pages.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:53 pm 
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It's like if they invented the alaitoc list first and then came up with the Biel Tan later everyone would be like woah there you're only giving up pathfinders and getting voidserpents +stuff. Noone will ever use alaitoc again. Of course they do though all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:38 am 
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ffoley wrote:
No-one will ever use Alaitoc again. Of course they do though all the time.

I don't understand. On the Epic UK site Alaitoc has been used for a TOTAL of 5 games.
Whilst Biel Tan has been used 549 times, . . .

At the moment the only reason I'd go for the Third Phase List it to use Kroot.
And since I've painted up plenty I do do that. Also Drone Squadrons deployed
from Tiger Sharks. A fluffy but not strong choice. Otherwise Vior'la has more options,
and many of them are more powerful - for similar points.

Conversely the powerful Vior'la inclusions that people have been discussing here, recently,
are all pretty AP focused. Not much use against lots of armour heavy lists that currently
sit in our micro-meta. And seem to sit across the Tasman.

As somebody said above - I do wish that the Crisis Suit would be upgraded. So that it
could be used to respond to a crisis rather than be a crisis for the survival of the Shas'o.
Some AT firepower for its Plasma Rifle. And MW for the Fire Fight (which is after all
only a FF5+). To provide to concrete suggestions. Everybody else's Plasma weapons
have a decent AT factor. The Crisis Suits are never going to be great in assault so
some buff on that front is not very overpowered for a small or very expensive formation.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:43 pm 
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I have to agree with Borka and ffoley.

No one is saying that this list is right or balanced right now, but as i posted in this thread a few weeks back - adding units doesn't *necessarily* make the list OP. Perhaps harder to balance but not impossible.

Going to post a bit more in the parallel thread as it isn't specifically about this list.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:51 am 
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Granted, but what is the actual aim for this list? It's hard to judge whether adding things makes sense, if the stats of those things are appropriate, and what existing things are superflous, without knowing what success looks like. If it's just 'tau with more units' it can be done by adding them in such a way as it fits with what's there already - without giving orcas a free deflector shield. But it seems quite clear that is not the whole story. If it's to represent greater aggression, fine, but this could be done whilst removing some of the aspects that don't fit that theme like the long ranged shooting units (railheads), foot fire warriors, guided missiles.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:00 am 
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Development of this list (or any list) cannot simply make a previously developed, balanced list obsolete. I don't think anyone has yet given an answer to what the point of the third phase list existing would be, if this were to be approved as-is tomorrow. That's as important to consider as the role and reason for the new list (which themselves are crucial), and is a major part of keeping things balanced and avoiding dramatic power creep.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:07 am 
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Sorry totally wrong with my post :P

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Doomkitten wrote:
Development of this list (or any list) cannot simply make a previously developed, balanced list obsolete. I don't think anyone has yet given an answer to what the point of the third phase list existing would be, if this were to be approved as-is tomorrow.


I guess the third phase list would be a list for those who enjoy playing list based on older GW fluff. They represent tau as they were a few years ago in GW-lore/fluff. When tau didn't really have any war engine stuff except for the fliers.

A good comaprsion would be the tyranid onachus list. It's a list based on old time fluff. There was also netEA development (although the effort has been very slow/stagnat last two-ish years) of a list based on newer tyranid additions/fluff. I think zombocom was the sub-AC for it. I see no conflict in this development philosophy.

I see third phase and vior'la like these two list. If more people prefer Vior'la for having the newer toys, then that wouldn't automatically make the third phase list obsolete. And it would be completely fine. I don't think we need to add every new unit GW/FW brings out, but Tau has evolved a lot latley in the 40k univerese and most of the new additions makes very good sence to add to epic.
I would like for this to be represented in a general tau list for epic as well, but having a list with the big suits without hammerheads as was suggested earlier wouldn't achieve this for instance.

I'm not sure what Matts vision is for the list though. I would much like to know his thoughts. I saw that he hasn't been logged on for three weeks. Could someone who knows him outside of this forum, give him a poke about the discussion going on perhaps?


Doomkitten wrote:
and is a major part of keeping things balanced and avoiding dramatic power creep.

And that's why we have devlopmental stages for our lists. Adding new stuff isn't equal to power creep if we do the balancing right.


Last edited by Borka on Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Doomkitten wrote:
and is a major part of keeping things balanced and avoiding dramatic power creep.

And that's why we have devlopmental stages for our lists. Adding new stuff isn't equal to power creep if we do the balancing right.[/quote]
Adding new stuff isn't necessarily power creep but when you lose nothing in return and the units taken from other lists are then boosted then you're not going to get anything but power creep.

What's the justification for boosting fire warriors and orcas? As far as I can see it's just to make them better. Similarly why boost the list with smaller recon?

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