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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:06 am 
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JimXII wrote:
In my mind an increase to the supremacy suits is a must. The void spinner comparison in the way you are using beef cake is brittle considering the supremacy suit has a better save and a 5+ invul and IC. Although disrupt is awesome. I also think the void spinner is undercosted.
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i agree that the voidspinner is undercosted but as an approved list it's the best comparison we have. In that context I think the points of supremacy is good where it is. If the issue is the armour then make it 4 or even 5+ reinforced. It's an artillery piece first and foremost and you should be paying primarily for the gun considering that if you are doing well it won't be getting shot at.

The problem with comparing to the vpidspnnner and just pointing that it hasn't better armour is that you're neglecting the fact that voidspinner has skimmer which is huge in many settings and belongs to a higher strat rating army which is huge in every respect to the value of an artillery piece.

Imo if the voidspinner stays at 275 then the supremacy at 250 is overpriced. And please nobody point at gaurd artillery which is so woefully overcosted it's just not a useful comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:09 am 
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taiaha wrote:
I was atensions opponent yesterday.
It was the first time we'd played Tau, but I pretty much made sure to target anything with Markerlight which wasn't that difficult after the Manta was broken. The opening activation with the assaulting Manta losing to Gyrocopters was incredibly unlucky and definitely had a major impact on the game.
The two Supremacy Suits were the star of the show for the Tau - they did more damage than everything else combined and I didnt really have anything that could touch them. Even without IC, they torched all my Squat Infantry formations, though we accidentally played them Init 1+.


Squats have phenomenal long range firepower, artillery and war engines with barrage options. I cant imagine how you can't have a valid response in your army, I'd suggest the issue was your list design because the list certainly has the options to deal with them even if you guys are giving them a significant buff by making them 1+


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:40 am 
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I had 3 supremacys at cancon. How many things did i kill with them against you beefcake? 2 skyrays and a hammerhead for the whole game? I also nearly lost the game being 47cm from the blitz to contest with a supremacy.

Gargants i stripped shields thats about it and lost 2.

Played guard. Won the roll off and killed what i needed they preformed well this game as all my oponenet had only deathstikes do deal with it.

Played eldar. 2 were down 2dc and broken before i had a go and were finished off by rangers. They arnt fearless. I think i killed 2 spears and 2 guardians with them for the game. This game was a perfect example of spreading out too. Best i could to pop some AA was rolling to hit on a felcome and a firestorm. Hit one and it was saved.

Last game against gargants i stripped a few shields and failed to active alot.



What performed was the riptides shooting a heap of stuff and being fast enough to grab objectives, but riptides are expensive so they should preform.

Gona agree that against void spinners for 275 and approved voids are better. Odds are they are going first. Disrupt is so good against non fearless broken stuff. Plus being about to march 75 onto an objective over terrain is a massive help if something dosnt go to plan.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Beefcake4000 wrote:
taiaha wrote:
I was atensions opponent yesterday.
It was the first time we'd played Tau, but I pretty much made sure to target anything with Markerlight which wasn't that difficult after the Manta was broken. The opening activation with the assaulting Manta losing to Gyrocopters was incredibly unlucky and definitely had a major impact on the game.
The two Supremacy Suits were the star of the show for the Tau - they did more damage than everything else combined and I didnt really have anything that could touch them. Even without IC, they torched all my Squat Infantry formations, though we accidentally played them Init 1+.


Squats have phenomenal long range firepower, artillery and war engines with barrage options. I cant imagine how you can't have a valid response in your army, I'd suggest the issue was your list design because the list certainly has the options to deal with them even if you guys are giving them a significant buff by making them 1+

I took Goliaths (targeted by pinpoint TK from space), LandTrain with 4BP MW, but has no Indirect and Thudd Guns which were outranged. Atension picked corner deployment and was able to park the supremacy suits 120cm from me, tucked behind good cover so impossible to hit with direct fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:46 pm 
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My mistake on the 1+. My rule print out got a little muddled and I could see it mentioned the WE battle suits but there was some detail loss, I just assumed it applied to them all. Is the 2+ intensional on the Supremacy? Seems odd that it would apply to only 2 of the 3 of the similar type WEs.
They did do pretty well damage wise even with out the IC since they were able to auto activate but the targets i was hitting were almost all armour 5 or worse. Aside from the Manta killing the iron eages there wasn't that many casualties on either side. Most of the tie breaking points at the end were due to broken formations. In terms of actual points lost it was closer to 500 points each side.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:29 pm 
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Any artillery that's engaging from out of sight, in a situation where the opponent cannot even get shots off at them, is going to do really well.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:16 pm 
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Quote:
Something came up though that would be helpful to clarify. Can guided missiles be shot from Overwatch at a formation that is marker-lit when it moves if the formation is not in line of sight of the Overwatching formation
Yes, I think it can, and play it that way. Although I could easily imagine room for debate. The Markerlight unit has line of fire and is within range (30cm) of the target formation. Being on Overwatch allows you to fire. I also think that it is very fluffy. Patient Hunter, setting fire traps and all that.

Quote:
1.6.1. Overwatch: The formation may not move, but instead enters overwatch. Being on overwatch allows the formation to interrupt an enemy formation’s action to shoot at it. You may not choose this action if the formation has any units that are out of formation.
Quote:
1.10. Also note that formations on overwatch may only react when a formation moves or unloads troops. They may not to choose to shoot at a formation that does anything else in their line of fire, such as shooting without moving or regrouping.
Quote:
11.1.9. Q: When are units that are armed with a weapon that does not require a line of fire
suppressed?
A: Only when they are within range of a unit from the target formation.
The clarification on indirect fire weapons say they can take suppression BMs without the need for "line of fire". The situation seems the same as for Guided Missile fire. The Guide Missile rule says that GMs can fire without Line of Fire:
Quote:
Third Phase Tau v 6.8. Guided Missiles may only be fired at a target formation that is marked, but Guided Missiles may be fired without LOF if the target is marked.


Quote:
2.1.13 A skimmer may declare that it is popping up at the start of any action that it takes, including when the skimmer goes into overwatch. A skimmer may not pop up as part of a sustained fire action or a marshal action, but may pop-up when it goes onto overwatch. Popping up counts as movement for the purposes of triggering firing by enemy units on overwatch.
Since most Guided Missile platforms are skimmers you would need to define that they would not popping up. I think the default would be that they were.


A parallel issue also occurs with Crossfire. Can you claim that without line of sight? Whether or not it is from Overwatch fire.
Quote:
1.11. The friendly unit that the crossfire line is drawn to must have a line of fire to a unit from the target formation, but does not have to be in range with any of its weapons. You may not use units that are in broken or marching formations to claim the crossfire bonus.

AND IN CLARIFICATIONS

Q: Does the friendly unit need to have a weapon that can affect the target formation in order to be used to catch it in a crossfire?
A: No, it doesn’t need weapons at all or even a Firefight value.
Q: Does the shooting formation need to have a line of fire to the friendly unit?
A: No, both the shooting formation and the friendly unit only need a line of fire to
the target formation.



Quote:
Markerlights are soo annoying... all my spotting formations would just get obliterated every time I tried to mark something. I didn't get to fire even one guided missile! maybe I didn't build a very good list (entirely possible). Probably lists that have more success with markerlights have higher activation counts and don't bother with the massive blimp (manta).
It is exactly this challenge that I think nicely balances the advantages of being able to fire guided missiles indirect. The presence of the Markerlight unit is a highly vulnerable risk. I generally try to use coordinated fire to ensure the support formation with guided missiles gets to fire. That does require a certain level of pop-corn. My recon formations frequently get broken/wiped out, by engage actions and die due to BMs on follow up fire.

Finally. my last game with a Manta suffered exactly the same fate with its planetfall. Too aggressive in its landing. Having said that it would have been hard to hide from the plethora of long range TK fire from the Greater and Lesser Gargants.

Battle Report Here: Epic 4K: Gargant Big Mob vs Vior'la Tau


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:53 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Sneak Preview of Vior'la V9

Unit Changes

Bringing things in line with Tau 3rd Phase
[] Manta - no self planetfall rule
[] Skyray FF 5+


Just to clarify I assume it will have regular planetfall instead, like the original list, right? I plan to play a manta in a coming tournament and it becomes a bit pointless without any planetfall capabillities.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:55 am 
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Guided missiles can overwatch against any moving markerlit targets in range, yes.

Using guided missiles for crossfire and suppression are two situations I would like to see FAQ'd. In the case of suppression, it is also necessary to cover aircraft which can never be markerlit but also are always in line of sight. Basically:

When can guided missiles be used for suppression?
A: Only if the target unit is within range and EITHER is in line of sight OR is markerlit
B: Only if the target unit i markerlit

For crossfire it's a bit different. Obviously you can only fire them if markerlit but if you are not in line of sight then what direction do they count as coming from? Remember the two attacking formations don't need to see each other, only that both need to be able to see the defender. And likewise, can you claim crossfire TO a unit with guided missiles out of line of sight. I would say no. If you think about it the first case (guided missiles are the ones firing) its exactly the same as artillery with indirect fire though it's far less likely to happen with artillery because of the minimum range rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:17 am 
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Btw my 2p on the list:

To my shame I've not managed to play the viorla list yet but partly it's because it's just tau but better and I haven't got bored of the 3rd phase list at all yet.

The list does get lots of buffs and very few needs compared to 3rd phase and that can't last as there is no big balance issue with the 3rd phase list. The only nerf that comes to mind is the slightly weaker recon formation. Everything else is just better.

Personally some of the flavour of the list has been lost by giving the tau a good air assault option (fireblade plus orca shield totally transform that combo - before, orcas are better deploying broadsides as they need to stay away from the enemy flak). Nothing seems to have been given up for this at all.

I do think the 3rd phase list coudl use some changes but they are mostly in list construction (mainly to fix crisis so they are actually useful rather than mandatory SC hangers-on). Either stats and/or allow them to replace fire warriors as upgrades. Kroot are also pointless but hey, they are in there for fluff and do no harm. Its probably a good thing they aren't any good as it'd compromise the flavour too.

On the supremacy, I also agree it looks undercosted (probably still). I don't see how the void spinner is that much better, but fair enough it's down to opinion. However it is not logical to use the eldar tank as the comparison if you are saying that tank is also undercosted - that just doesn't make sense. The basilisks are probably overcoated but even at 225 they'd still be far worse than the supremacy.

The list has merit in adding those extra units but I would remove the fireblade (uh oh what have I started?), probably also revert the orca and remove half the aircraft. You can't have your cake and eat it, I think to make them good at firefight Tau would have to sacrifice shooting buffs (ie lose the +1 on markerlights).

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:27 am 
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Trying to assault with Fire Warriors, and you're going to lose, big time, fireblades or not, orca or not, against a majority of targets. What works is to land fire warriors and pathfinders somewhere within 15cm of an enemy infantry formation, chain activate them, and shoot the bejeezus out of the close by target. This only works against infantry, but it does hit pretty hard. The formation is then most likely lost to the counterattack, ff 4 or not, and should you fail that 3+ chain activation roll, forget them, they're gone. Crisis suits hit less hard, but can take out vehicles.

Compared to Thunderhawk Space Marine assault, it is not nearly as versatile, more risky and not as hard hitting, but at least it's an air option, and somewhat cheaper in points. Compared to an Eldar drop, it is, again, less versatile and hard hitting.

What the fireblade gives you is not 'good at firefight'; it is a slightly higher chance for them to take something with them, before they die horribly.

And I agree this list is an upgrade to the 3rd phase list. It grants the Tau player new ways of playing the game with some sort of success.
What I disagree with is that this is a bad thing. Lists in this game are increasingly becoming one trick ponies.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:26 am 
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Parintachin wrote:
Trying to assault with Fire Warriors, and you're going to lose, big time, fireblades or not, orca or not, against a majority of targets. What works is to land fire warriors and pathfinders somewhere within 15cm of an enemy infantry formation, chain activate them, and shoot the bejeezus out of the close by target. This only works against infantry, but it does hit pretty hard. The formation is then most likely lost to the counterattack, ff 4 or not, and should you fail that 3+ chain activation roll, forget them, they're gone. Crisis suits hit less hard, but can take out vehicles.

Compared to Thunderhawk Space Marine assault, it is not nearly as versatile, more risky and not as hard hitting, but at least it's an air option, and somewhat cheaper in points. Compared to an Eldar drop, it is, again, less versatile and hard hitting.

What the fireblade gives you is not 'good at firefight'; it is a slightly higher chance for them to take something with them, before they die horribly.

And I agree this list is an upgrade to the 3rd phase list. It grants the Tau player new ways of playing the game with some sort of success.
What I disagree with is that this is a bad thing. Lists in this game are increasingly becoming one trick ponies.

Why are you going to lose against most target with air assault FW when you are rolling 8 dice on 4s? Perfect tactic for them would be going for a small target with 1 set of FW then using them to FF support a 2nd Orca load.
That's for 400 points and is considerably better than most loads you can get for that price (including the transport) - thawk and assault SM or vampire and guardians.

The new units look really interesting but I can't see why it was necessary to upgrade Orcas, Fire Warriors and even recon formations. The list has lots of new toys, lots of boosts to existing units and loses basically nothing bar Kroot

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:31 am 
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Not sure what you mean about chain activate? Are you talking about planetfall?

If the fireblade doesn't help then let's drop him then. I contend that in fact this formation IS quite good at assault (just because other specialist formations that have zero shooting are better doesn't make it less true), but mainly this alpha strike ability removes a major constraint on the tau that gives them great flavour.

You are free of course to prefer the extra flexibility but do you not agree it's important to distinguish 'i like having x in the list because it makes my army good' from good list design?

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:26 am 
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If what you're thinking of when you say 'good list design' is making a list that can do one thing, and that thing only, then we're not going to agree, Kyrt (o:
I kinda like Not knowing how the exact game will play out when my opponent and I have declared factions.

I like having options. I like the game being won on the table, not during list building; if that's what we want, then why bother with miniatures and terrain at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:40 am 
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You may contend it; doesn't make it true. Sure it might beat a small unsupported artillery formation, but it will never be good at it.

Your 4 hits in FF (plus perhaps one from the Orca) isn't what the Orca Fire Warrior formation is good at.
It's taking the 3 pathfinder option, and getting 8 3+ shots, 13 4+ disrupt shots and 3 4+ snipe shots, in the situation I describe. I am counting sustained fire order, and marker lights against a formation in cover. This will work against infantry only, of course, but it will hit them hard. And yes, that's from Planetfall.

I still think that this is weaker than the dedicated air assault troops I described - eldar, space marines. Sure it's a little cheaper, but it is both riskier, less flexible and less powerful.

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