That's a pretty good explanation of the list's goal and role. If you follow Tau in 40k at all you will know that they have come a long way since their early days, and the Vior'la list is an attempt to carry some of those developments over into Epic for the Tau fans.

There have been some terrific new battle reports coming in, especially from the two players who took Tau to Cancon. I'd like to thank them for their efforts, and hope they had fun with their armies at the event.

A new version of the list with a few tweaks made and a typos fixed will be available soon.

Apologies, you are of course correct, I realised I didn't hit on 2's it was 3's and I got a good roll (MikeT would have pulled me up on it otherwise!)



Different metagames and terrain interpretations are going to have a huge impact on viewpoints for sure, all I can say is that when I play against Steve54 and his eldar list which he's won multiple tournaments with, I tend to have an easier ride than when I play against his black legion or marines, but then I've played the guy every other week for the last 6 years, maybe I've figured him out a bit or maybe the way I use my marines happens to be difficult for him to deal with, whatever the reason, they don't seem any more powerful than any of the other armies I face regularly, I'm just calling it how *I* personally see it, and one of the problems with 'how would you beat this list' questions is that it takes no account of relative player skill, playstyle, terrain etc..... I could ask one of my regular opponents to take the list out, but they aren't the guys who developed it and probably would use it differently to how Mic Fair did, just as he would probably be in the same boat with Steve or anyone else's list.... like Onyx very wisely said over in the Codex Marines power discussion:



Back to the Vior'la list, I like it, I actually do like the big battlesuits being included which is rare as I typically find the ever-increasing ridiculousness of GW design quite offputting (knights notwithstanding) but I tend to come down on the same side as Yme-loc in that if you want to add something to a list, you need to remove an option too, it's not always a unit-for-unit tradeoff, but sometimes it's a strategic or tactical option, or even something as simple as moving a unit choice into a more restricted section.... perhaps the list could benefit from having a tighter core:support ratio... so you have to take more core choices to squeeze the support things in, that way you wouldn't need to cut much (if anything) from the list and give people the flexibility to build armies around the models they want to include, but it would be distinctly different in structure from the 3rd phase list

just a suggestion

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Sneak Preview of Vior'la V9

Unit Changes
[] KX139 Supremacy price increase from 225 to 250
[] Razorshark Squadron removed from list

Bringing things in line with Tau 3rd Phase
[] Manta - no self planetfall rule
[] Skyray FF 5+

Clarifications
[] Shas'el Firewarrior upgrade rule
[] Orca Broadside rules

Typos/Corrections
[] Seeker missiles added to Piranha.
[] XV104 typo in Strategy rating and initiative rolls

If there are any other items people would like to see addressed, please post them or PM me. Thanks!

ohhhh yeah we awoke him

so keen

thanks heaps matt

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Great to see you back Matt. I'm excited to see this list gain so momentum again. I brought it to a tournament back in November. Really enjoyed the options the larger suits, especially Riptides, provided. I do agree and support trimming options down out of the list to streamline the direction you're aiming to see it go. Let us know what you'd like to see play tests and pushed!

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Goo to see you back and thanks for coming!


About items to address:

On the part of typos, could you change the ID on the Supremacy's gun for a Ind like in other weapons with this rule?
It looks like a silly thing, but got us wondering what it could be for a time and best bet we had till we checked here was that you wrote double the Ignore cover part. Well, was mainly also because we dropped fast the thought that a Tau gun could have Indirect Fire, but that's another issue.

On the part about Bringing things in line with Tau 3rd Phase, Railgun Hammerheads have been changed too.
The RailGun is now AP5+ OR AT4+ L, same range, and the Smart Missiles have been changed to Burst cannons 15cm AP5+.


This is not a typo and would need to talk long about, but its related to the changes you propose:

Following Yme-loc way of thinking, for keeping the offensive approach you wanted for this list, and finally to avoid the scenario of why to take Third Phase if we have Vior'La that was talked before ... If we are going to take out one fighter, how about we take out one of the aircrafts from Third Phase and keep the Razorsharks?

Razorsharks as they are are lacking personality, but i like the idea of a fighter aggressively diving into AA that was talked about before and would go with your objective for the list. So i would like to unearth this part you wrote from the past.

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Great to hear from you Matt Shadowlord.


Razor Shark

I notice that the Razor Shark fighter in the above post has:
Quad Ion Turret 15cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+
Twin Burst Cannons 15cm AA6+

But the pdf has only AA6+ on the Quad ion Turret. The AA5+ seems justified (quad turret and all)
and would make the aircraft attractive compared to the Barracuda. As it is (2 x AA6+ each aircraft)
I have not bothered to take them - sticking to Barracuda Squadrons. Not really an issue if they
are to be dropped.

Manta

For a while the Manta had a command deck upgrade. 50 points for a supreme commander re-roll,
but nothing else. Would you bring that back? Like the drop to 625 points. Although it is not aligned
to the 3rd Phase List.

Rules Clarifications

Shas'el Firewarrior upgrade? Thought that a Shas'el could only be added to a Suit (Crisis or Riptide).
Do you mean the Shas'o upgrade to a Fire Warrior unit? Cost 100 points?

Did you intend to give the Shas'o character the commander (combined assault) characteristic.
It is implied in the Supreme Commander rule (Leader and Commander). The Shas'o does have
Coordinated Fire.

Blast Weapons and Markerlights

I have always thought that the Markerlight rule sounded like a modern Forward Observer, . . .
So removing the Markerlight bonus for spotting for an artillery strike seems sad.
If you took away the Ignore Cover from the KX139 Ta'unar then that would be a balancing act.

It would leave the markerlight rule applying to all attacks (except AA) - easier to remember?
Low armour infantry in cover would not lose their armour save (due to Ignore Cover). The
benefit for Markerlight is balanced by having Tetras (vulnerable light vehicles) or Pathfinders
(infantry) within 30 cm so particularly vulnerable.

The Sun Shark bombers need to get in very close 15 cm to use their blast template weapons.
Having markerlighting ground forces within 30 cm as well is putting the systems at plenty of
risk to offset the benefit.

Keep up the good work.

Slowly painting up the Riptide reinforcements, . . .

I'll admit I'm disappointed to see a bump to supremacy suits points value. I cant help but point at void spinners that are 275 with similar stats except they get disrupt and skimmer in an army with higher strategy... Can we bump to 275 and get those stats please! 250 seems like poor value compared to what Eldar have.

The rest of the changes seem fine to me and I'm super happy to see a Shas El go into the infantry unit, that will open up some options

In my mind an increase to the supremacy suits is a must. The void spinner comparison in the way you are using beef cake is brittle considering the supremacy suit has a better save and a 5+ invul and IC. Although disrupt is awesome. I also think the void spinner is undercosted.
Cheers
Jim

I have yet to play the KX139, but have ordered something to convert and hope to play it soon. So this is only theoryhammer on my part, but I do think 250 pts is a minimum for what it brings. It has an awesome save and brings ground based BP (previously a weakness designed into the list) with ignore cover that can reach almost the entire field on turn one. Might actually need to go up further. I really like it though, makes Tau have something in the small titan category, which is nice.

Matt I don't think the design really fits the background though.

"Larger than any other current battlesuit, the KX139 Ta’unar Supremacy Armour was designed to eliminate the increasing numbers of enemy heavy assault elements encountered by the Tau empire, from Imperial Knights to the towering alien monstrosities of the Tyranid Hive Fleets."

The Pulse ordnance multi-driver has dual firing modes in 40k. With one being more concentrated with a singel template and Strength D, AP 2 and then a less powerful multiple templates version with ignore cover, which I assume you based your stats on.
Perhaps we could give it dual modes in epic as well. Something like

current stats... OR
60 cm 4+ TK (1) (or MW4+ ?)

It would mimic 40k rules and offer the unit some chance of going after the big guys like the fluff says. Current stats with only BP + ignore cover makes it a hunter of guards, guardians and orks.

Great to see you back! Tau are my favorite army and this is a great list! I hope to see it move forward.

cheers

Got a game in with the changes specified in Matts last post with the exception of the supremacy war engines at 225pts but no IC on the BP weapon. Personally I like Borkas suggestion with the dual firing modes, its super fluffy. Actually was my first game using the list, I fielded:

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Tau Vior'la (1.5 Developmental)
==================================================
FIRE WARRIOR CADRE [275]
8 Fire Warrior units, 2 Gun Drones, Cadre Fireblade
FIRE WARRIOR CADRE [325]
6 Fire Warrior Units, 3 Devilfishes, Shas'o Commander
SKYSWEEP SUPPORT GROUP [250]
3 Skyray Air Defense Gunships
STEALTH GROUP [225]
6 XV15 Stealth Units
XV104 RIPTIDE FORMATION [350]
3 XV104 Riptides, Shas'el Commander
KV139 SUPREMACY SUIT [225]
KV139 SUPREMACY SUIT [225]
RECON SKIMMER GROUP [150]
5 Pathfinder Tetra
MANTA DROPSHIP [625]
SPACECRAFT [200]
1 Protector Class Cruiser
ORCA ASSAULT DROPSHIP [150]

I was much too aggressive with the Manta planetfall location and it was broken the first turn on my activation losing an engagement to a group of 4 gyrocopters..... unbelieveably unlucky rolling on my part. my Opponent should have been able to mop the floor with me from there however he managed to fail 7 critical activations. By the end of turn three I had take and hold and he had nothing. We didnt have time to go onto a 4th turn so we called it a draw and he ended up winning on points 1450 to 850, partially because I was an idiot with the Manta, partially because he lost an engagment with a full group of warriors against 3 broken stealth suits (had a good laugh at that).

Supremacy WEs did well at 225 without IC, I think 250 with IC is fine also.

Manta points drop is getting better, maybe come down another 25 to make it an even 600. Its a monstrous boat that everything can and does shoot (being a support craft) and the triple armour save is rather annoying. Its priced the same as a reaver with 2 more DC but no shields and slightly worse armour (situation depending). I need to try it again though.

Markerlights are soo annoying... all my spotting formations would just get obliterated every time I tried to mark something. I didn't get to fire even one guided missile! maybe I didn't build a very good list (entirely possible). Probably lists that have more success with markerlights have higher activation counts and don't bother with the massive blimp (manta).

Something came up though that would be helpful to clarify. Can guided missiles be shot from Overwatch at a formation that is marker-lit when it moves if the formation is not in line of sight of the Overwatching formation?

I need to play another game with the list soon to try out a different strategy.

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Does the supremacy suit really need IC? I know that most things in the tau army are rocking either MW, disrupt and/or IC but is it necessary across the board? Is 250 still not a bit cheap considering what you get? I'd happily put 3 Earthshakers on a Baneblade chassis for 250 and still not have all the benefits of the supremacy suit. Not to mention init 1+ and the extra support slot for each core fprmation

int 2+

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Sorry I assumed it was the same init as the other suits.

Do you see where I'm coming from though? If lists like Codex Marines and Steel Legion are kept at the power level they're at as a "yardstick" for measuring the power of new lists then surely making a unit so clearly better than the artillery units in those lists but costing them the same is a bit of an oversight?

I'm not saying don't put supremacy suits in the list just that they're coated appropriately that's all

Id happily help out with playtesting but at the moment my usual Tau opponent won't go near the viorla list due to his impression of its strengths

I was atensions opponent yesterday.
It was the first time we'd played Tau, but I pretty much made sure to target anything with Markerlight which wasn't that difficult after the Manta was broken. The opening activation with the assaulting Manta losing to Gyrocopters was incredibly unlucky and definitely had a major impact on the game.
The two Supremacy Suits were the star of the show for the Tau - they did more damage than everything else combined and I didnt really have anything that could touch them. Even without IC, they torched all my Squat Infantry formations, though we accidentally played them Init 1+.