Parintachin wrote:
To take your points: You're making the argument, as I see it, that opening ANY kind of new tactical use of the list, that the 3rd phase list does not have, no matter how insubstantial it is, without seriously nerfing the rest of the list, is inherently making the whole list OP?
Would making stealth suits a slightly better, more viable formation make the whole 3rd phase list unbalanced too? Kroot?
I'd strongly disagree with both those, but please, if you Do think so, please argue that.
no I'm not making that argument, the 3rd phase tau list is meant to embody the 'patient hunter' thingumajig teaching from some tau bloke whose name I don't have enough apostrophe's for, and it does that quite well, it can afford to be a reactive list which then strikes when the opponent over reaches, using markerlights, crossfires, co-ordinated fire, all that fun stuff, and it's good at that, it really is, it's a headache to use and use well, but when you figure it out, it's a nightmare for your opponent to deal with (I've been on the recieving end of too many kickings to count from Steve54 like that)
The Vior'la list is meant to embody a more aggressive style of play, and it has the elements to accomplish that (toughened orcas carrying fire warrior fireblades or swarms of vespids, tough battlesuits that can get up close and personal with the opponent, and big stompy artillery mini-titans to shell them from the get go) but it ALSO gives up little of the 3rd phase, patient hunter kit in the process, as I see it unless you've got a particularly strong attachment to your kroot, there is no reason to use the 3rd phase list when the vior'la list is around, yes it has new tactics but it doesn't focus the list in new directions, it simply broadens the existing list, which does go against the 'mission statement' of Epic development of strongly themed lists
I'd also strongly disagree that some of the changes are insubstantial, the addition of artillery which can hit the opponent's baseline is a new capability and really plugs a gap in the list (I've found that Tau dislike patiently hunting while being shelled by opposing artillery for example....) the reduction in number in the recon formations is probably a boost on balance as it reduces the price and increases activation count. The ability to drop a decent (not exceptional, but definitely not awful) air assault formation, from a seriously buffed orca is a big change to the list, it's something the opponent has to plan for that simply wasn't used before, as I'm sure you're aware, the *threat* of an air assault can be every bit as effective as the actual assault itself
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I have seen people argue that single formations are OP, therefore the list is OP, yet every time one of these has been examined, it has been shown to be not the case at all.
can you give examples of this? I'm not trying to be a dick here but I'd like to see the context
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I have seen no sign of an argument as to how Steve54 or RichardL and other superior players would sweep the tables with this list, even as it stands; just blank assertions that they would, and been very nicely told that I'm an idiot for not seeing this immediately.
Steve54 would most likely take a list similar to the one I posted above, ~13 activations, against most armies, he'd layer the recon formations to make it very difficult for the opponent to get forward and get good firing angles on the fire warriors and hammerheads, he does that with regular Tau, but here he'd be able to drop a pair of barrages on the other side of the table, hitting enemy artillery or AA formations, suppressing or breaking them, the 3rd phase list doesn't have that capacity, his SR3 would mean he'd more often than not get the drop on guard artillery or AA batteries, something he can't do with the 3rd phase list, the remainder of the turn would be moving the scouts forward to markerlight stuff and tempt the opponent forward, with guided missiles and railheads he can generally outrange you, so if you try to sit and shoot, he can continue to drop barrages on you, putting pressure on your baseline formations like artillery and AA, then by the scoring turns, you've suffered a great deal of damage from the tau shooting and if things go his way, he's got an activation advantage of 2-3 or more, your AA is likely to be heavily reduced from the barrages, so then you have to deal with a formation of fireblades dropping on top of your objectives and snatching them away
that's how it would be likely to play, all the good patient hunter style sit and wait play, bolstered by artillery and capable (if not earth shattering) air assaults.... it's not guaranteed to win, but it competes in more phases of the game, more effectively and that's why I think it needs toning down a bit....