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Tau Identity and Firefight
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23088		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  EpicBattleBaggz [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Identity and Firefight
Yeah I'm going to go ahead and ask, but I'm sure this has come up as a hot point of debate once or twice on this board. But why such a low FF value for the Tau in general? Are they really that unplayable if you give them a 4+? ::)

Nothing against the crossfire marklight combo, but it's seems that they would be best represented with a higher FF value since the Tau "fluff" kinda dictates long range engagements with superior firepower rather than sneaking up on them gunning them down via the Ninja methodology.

I see the Marines as a sugical tool. I see the Imperial Guard as the Sledge Hammer. I see the Orks as a Mob. I see the Eldar as Muhammad Ali. I see the Tyranids and Necrons as the Monster that never dies. The Dark Eldar as the class bully.

Tau...I can't imagine. :'(
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
Oh, man. Put the genie back in the bottle before its too late! Nope, it got away. Damn.

There are indeed differing opinions on this. I believe the idea was to represent the perceived Tau aversion to casualties by creating an army that didn't want to engage, or need to. Whether the Tau philosophy is truly against casuaties is up in the air IMO; their rather utilitarian outlook on ethics ("The Greater Good") would indicate they are probably against casualties as far as they can be, but that they can and will fight short ranged engagements when tactically expedient.

Other's more involved in the development process can say more I'm sure.
Author:  Mephiston [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
Give Tau FF 4+ and they become Eldar. It was done on purpose, believe me this debate went on for years. Yes years.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
One way to understand it is that 40k is just not very good at representing different play styles, because it's such a restrictive rule set, whilst Epic has the freedom to get the Tau "right".

I used to like the idea of ff4+, but in later years I became a champion of 5+ as I came to see the light of how unique a play style it could produce.
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
One thought I had was to create a Farsight list with a 4+ FF but less shooting ability, to represent their inclination toward CC.

Indolence has held me back. Well, that and the fact that there already IS a Farsight list.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
Of course no one even tried just costing things correctly with a 4+FF and shootiness either.... >:D
Author:  Onyx [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
I said to myself that I wouldn't post in this thread but why start listening to myself now... :D

I supported the nerfed FF system (mainly because I was glad to see the list developing) until heavily playtesting the list with a player that I beat about 60-70% of the time. He plays Marines. Once his winning streak went to 6 games I knew there was a problem (that said, we were playtesting the list and so some situations and army builds were not ideal).

I then proposed that we change the FF values to reflect the real Tau firepower at short range and use an activation modifier to help shape the Tau playstyle (exactly the same way that Orks have done from the beginning). This was criticised and rejected (mostly, I believe because the process was too far down the road for there to be change as big as this one). Comments like "why would an army be great at FF range fighting and not want to use that firepower..." etc. What's odder to me is anyone that looks at a Crisis Suit stats and can possibly think that 5+ is even close to realistic (and why a Krootox has a better FF than a Crisis Suit ... :D ).

Tau have the most amazing firepower at short range. They try not to let the battle get that close as they do have a high value on assets. That said, anyone that actually reads all the available fluff on Tau will see that they are not afraid to get into a firefight if the strategic need is there and they certainly are happy to dig in and let a foe rush into their guns and get mowed down. 5+ FF does not allow the Tau to dig in and hold objectives. Epic Armageddon is often won or lost on the outcome of engagements. Tau should be better at FF engagements than they are in the current list.

I don't expect any change as the current list seems to be basically balanced. I'm sad that it's not a more Tau representative list.
Author:  EpicBattleBaggz [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Oh, man. Put the genie back in the bottle before its too late! Nope, it got away. Damn.


Ha Ha! I want my three wishes now ;D
Author:  EpicBattleBaggz [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
Mephiston wrote:
Give Tau FF 4+ and they become Eldar. It was done on purpose, believe me this debate went on for years. Yes years.


I don't buy that for one bit. Eldar are specialized in certain aspects, not everyone having 4+FF. But it kinda goes beyond the 4+ FF. As I will reiterate my last post, they're identity kind of sucks compared to the other races. What is it supposed to be? Shooty? Stompy? In-between? Nothing really sticks out as "BAM! Hello I'm Tau and I want you to have a nice day!"....or bad depending on your outlook. :P

It kinda seems to me that the rules for them are more gimmick than race specific game changing. Like two blast markers to suppress one Marine or retaining initiative 3 times in a row like Eldar. Hell even the Necrons play like Necrons. Marklight just seems weak compared to all that.
Author:  EpicBattleBaggz [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
Dobbsy wrote:
Of course no one even tried just costing things correctly with a 4+FF and shootiness either.... >:D


Your going somewhere with that... :o
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
Onyx wrote:
I said to myself that I wouldn't post in this thread but why start listening to myself now...

I did exactly the same! :D

EpicBattleBaggz wrote:
Dobbsy wrote:
Of course no one even tried just costing things correctly with a 4+FF and shootiness either.... >:D


Your going somewhere with that... :o

:D Not me! Been there done that and ended up :{[]

I learned a long time ago that most folk on Taccoms don't like "out of the box" concepts when it comes to Epic. They just don't want to "waste all the work that's been done" even for a better concept.

You can put out all the alt lists you like, but most people won't play them even if you put up loads of batreps.
Author:  EpicBattleBaggz [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
Dobbsy wrote:
I learned a long time ago that most folk on Taccoms don't like "out of the box" concepts when it comes to Epic. They just don't want to "waste all the work that's been done" even for a better concept.


You know Taccoms, change is good once in a while! :D
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
Dobbsy wrote:
Of course no one even tried just costing things correctly with a 4+FF and shootiness either.... >:D

Yes they did.
Ff4+ was tried for one iteration before our time, IIRC in combination with some sort of activation special rule or modifier as later suggested by Onyx.

It was agreed by the playtesters at the time that it didn't feel right and the list went back to ff5+. Jervis was still amongst us in those days.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
EpicBattleBaggz wrote:
Mephiston wrote:
Give Tau FF 4+ and they become Eldar. It was done on purpose, believe me this debate went on for years. Yes years.

It kinda seems to me that the rules for them are more gimmick than race specific game changing. Like two blast markers to suppress one Marine or retaining initiative 3 times in a row like Eldar. Hell even the Necrons play like Necrons. Marklight just seems weak compared to all that.

marker lights alone?
Pretty weak.

Marker lights plus coordinated fire plus the jetpacks rule?
Awesomeness.
Author:  Ulrik [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau Identity and Firefight
Dobbsy wrote:
Of course no one even tried just costing things correctly with a 4+FF and shootiness either.... >:D


One immediate issue would be that it would lead to smaller, more fragile Tau armies.

Not saying that's good or bad.
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