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Tau Fio'Ka - SUPERSEDED BY XAR'KA list

 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Morays that were also able to hide behind terrain would be a true nightmare.

Never liked it and hated it in play. Your unit is available for all and sundry to shoot at but it can't see jack thanks to the skimmer rules. Bleck![/quote]

Not sure you quite understand how Support Craft works. If your opponent can see the Moray the Moray can see his formation. It is possible to hide Support Craft under the rule. It's difficult but it is possible. I have very few problems with the support craft rule. Seriously try using the Manta in the new list its pretty good.

E&C is right smaller formation sizes are power boosts to Tau. Not sure the list is overpowered yet but you can get many more activations than the core list and does not have to incliude a single HH. Is that really what we want from the armoured list a return to the ML and Missile gunline. It's not as powerful as the older version but still.

E&C isn't the Shadowsword 90cm MW2+ TK D3 for 200 points. The Moray is better but I'm not sure it's 125 points better. The 90cm was so we didn't need to create another weapon category ala Moray Heavy Rail Cannon.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:57 pm 
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Would the list be overpowered if the Stingrays were dropped? Only HHs as core and a 1-2 ration of core/support seems pretty inflexible.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 pm 
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Quote:
Is that really what we want from the armoured list a return to the ML and Missile gunline. It's not as powerful as the older version but still.

Thus my Drones Akimbo concept, rather than "Let's bring back missile spam".

However everybody hates Drones.

Quote:
E&C isn't the Shadowsword 90cm MW2+ TK D3 for 200 points. The Moray is better but I'm not sure it's 125 points better. The 90cm was so we didn't need to create another weapon category ala Moray Heavy Rail Cannon.

Heavy Rail cannon 90cm MW3+ Titan Killer D3, FFA
2x Ion Cannon 60cm AP4+/AT5+ FFA
2x Manta Burst Cannons 30cm AP5+/AA6+
Twin Missile Pods 45cm AP5+/AT6+ FFA
Seeker Missile 90cm AT6+ Guided Missile

That's a lot of extra guns, decent AA ability, decent to great range on all weapons, better SR, and it can fly. Yeah, I'd suggest starting testing @325pts.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:39 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
Would the list be overpowered if the Stingrays were dropped? Only HHs as core and a 1-2 ration of core/support seems pretty inflexible.


It's not really that inflexible when you consider how many variant HH's there are.

Another down side of the stingray is that it completely overshadows the Ion Cannon HH.

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
Is that really what we want from the armoured list a return to the ML and Missile gunline. It's not as powerful as the older version but still.

Thus my Drones Akimbo concept, rather than "Let's bring back missile spam".

However everybody hates Drones.


But E&C it is supposed to be an armoured list not a drone list ie. focused on the different variates of tau tanks. The list will also not return to Missile spam if the stingray is removed and the scorpionfish has to compete for space with spaceships, morays, mantas and aircraft.

Dobbsy: Another way to look at and write this list fluff is as the Tau Earth caste list i.e a list with a focus on manufacturing and new/experimental technologies. Yes E&C this would include more variates of drones but less of a focus on them than what you originally suggested. This would then mean that we could have a Water Caste list (auxiliaries) and Fire caste list (FW and Criss focus with less new technology). What do people think?


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:02 pm 
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Quote:
Tau Earth caste list

But Hammerheads etc. are crewed by Fire Caste, no?

An Earth Caste army list would consist of tons fo civilians in construction tractors, heh.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:04 pm 
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Crewed yes. Made no.

Just think of it as the experimental/high tech. list. We could add in the experimental Forge World Battle suits for example instead of crisis suits.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:20 pm 
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What's wrong with a Fio'Ka-doctrine list :-/


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Largely that we would like to differentiate the lists a bit more and avoid Missile Spam as much as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:28 pm 
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You guys are overcomplicating the background. And lists don't have to be that different, again look at the Eldar lists.

Missile spam I got no opinion on, but doesn't that mean just removing the Stingray.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:52 pm 
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Lists should represent a significant divergence from the core list IMHO to justify their existence. If they are not that different from the core why bother doing them just use the core list. IMHO most the Eldar lists just about achieve this in particular Saim Hann, Ulthwe and Iyaden. I think they are very different from the core list which is supposed to be Aspect heavy. We should at all times attempt to avoid cluttering and confusing the NetEA project with unnecessary lists.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:07 pm 
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Well, I think you're wrong. Lists are made too generic and all-inclusive all the time. A tighter focus would give more space to lists and make them easier to balance.

They're also good for including new units (like the moray and scorpionfish) without having to consider how they interact with every other new unit that is created.

But anyway, armoured battalion is a fine concept for a list. It's possible to create variety with small list changes, as the Eldar lists clearly show.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:29 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
Well, I think you're wrong. Lists are made too generic and all-inclusive all the time. A tighter focus would give more space to lists and make them easier to balance.


I'm not disagreeing with you I just think that list which are too generic and all inclusive should not exist.

Ulrik wrote:
They're also good for including new units (like the moray and scorpionfish) without having to consider how they interact with every other new unit that is created.


I don't really think adding new units in is enough. Also I really dislike the trend in some lists to follow 40k too closely. That company has not produced a decent/challenging game in years and is more concerned with selling toy soldiers. Frankly marine Wolf Riders was the last straw IMHO.

Ulrik wrote:
But anyway, armoured battalion is a fine concept for a list. It's possible to create variety with small list changes, as the Eldar lists clearly show.


Again not really disagreeing with you I agree that an armoured list should exist. I just don't think the list has gone far enough to develop the concept. I disagree with you on Eldar however. I think they are more different than you give them credit for. They encourage quite different styles of composition and play. Marines on the other hand not so much. I have quite a problem with many of those lists not Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and Raven Guard but quite alot of the others.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:45 pm 
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Jstr19 wrote:
I disagree with you on Eldar however. I think they are more different than you give them credit for. They encourage quite different styles of composition and play.


Not sure we disagree here. My position is that the Eldar lists create quite a different playstyle (or at least, different enough to justify a list) through very small changes. Ulthwé has one new formation (black guardians), one formation moved from hosts to troupes and reduced (aspect troupe), one new unit (seer council), one special rule (sr5) and one unit it can't use (Void Spinner). But the list plays very different.

Maybe the problem is that the Third Phase list is too flexible. The Fio'Ka has, what, 3 new units (scorpionfish, stingray, sentry drones), total topsy turvy on core and support cadres, more limited support-core ratio and have lost broadsides, kroot and non-mechanized fire warriors. Doesn't that look pretty different?


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:30 pm 
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Jstr19 wrote:
Not sure you quite understand how Support Craft works. If your opponent can see the Moray the Moray can see his formation. It is possible to hide Support Craft under the rule. It's difficult but it is possible. I have very few problems with the support craft rule. Seriously try using the Manta in the new list its pretty good.

I understand. However, If the enemy is hiding in your turn you can't see it so when his turn comes he can move out to shoot at you. When you're always exposed to all enemy fire with a fairly naff shield and everything has a chance to knock you out of the sky while the Titans/WE you're vehicle is supposed to be firing on can hide behind woods and buildings, the lifespan of a support craft is fairly short. Planetfall seems to be one saving grace on Support craft but then you're forced to spend more points on a spacecraft thus reducing ground forces and as we all know Tau require numbers to work so, yeah, IMO Support Craft is naff.

Jstr19 wrote:
Again not really disagreeing with you I agree that an armoured list should exist. I just don't think the list has gone far enough to develop the concept.

Agreed. And a few of the suggestions put forward I do intend to add in and take out. Stingrays for example, and I'm contemplating costing individual HH turrets.

However, as I've mentioned, the list is an Armoured Strike Force (a battle group in modern military parlance) plain and simple. It's not a Caste-specific list (even though it's a Fire caste list being ground forces) and it's not a specific Sept with various fluff reasons for no infantry. It's designed to give the player the option to field an armoured battlegroup using all the tanks they may have accumulated and a few support type units.

Jstr19 wrote:
Not sure the list is overpowered yet but you can get many more activations than the core list and does not have to incliude a single HH.

That'll be remedied.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:42 pm 
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How would upping the HH formations to 6 units (+2 upgrades) affect things?


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