Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 111 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Tau Fio'Ka - SUPERSEDED BY XAR'KA list

 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.2 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:17 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:49 am
Posts: 141
+1 would be good to see

_________________
Epic hobby blog
http://fuddshobby.blogspot.com.au/
https://www.facebook.com/FuddsEpicHobby/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.2 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:06 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:15 am
Posts: 332
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
This Tau Variant has got some good ideas and units in it, but at moment it's dormant.
If there is still interest in an Armoured Cadre I could add a few tweaks and update it so the stats and units to better match the more current Tau lists, after I finish the new update to Vior'la Tau.

Sounds good to me. My thoughts/contributions are above.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.2 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:19 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
FWIW Some things I was looking at for this list were the following:

Mech Cadre:
remove Gun Drones upgrade
option A/ reduce to 3 HH from 4 HH
option B/ reduce to 2HH and add 1 Skyray
cost to remain the same for testing.

Recon:
reduce formation to 5 Tetras for 150 as per Viorla.

Moray:
remove from list

AX-1-0:
price reduced to 350 as per Third Phase.

Scorpionfish:
possible armour upgrade to 4+ RA for a bit more survivability for the SC.

Orca:
Remove from list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:17 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:23 am
Posts: 700
Hi Dobbsy

Glad to hear you're going to be doing some more work on the list.

Several of your comments above match notes I wrote earlier for this list, so I will post it in below.

------------------------------------------------
The Orca is in the list; is it needed? since all infantry except Stealth suits come with transports, what can it actually transport?

Moray: Unit has been removed from tau lists.

Hammerheads: Consider incorporating the updated Rail gun rule.

Mechanised Cadre 4 Hammerhead Gunships is worth 200-225 pts of hammerheads and 225 worth of Fire Warriors and three devilfish. ie it is priced exactly like 2 formations in the other tau list, and probably deserves a discount because of the increased size and the fact the hammerheads and infantry aren't a perfect combination (esp once the first devilfish dies).

Scouts - other lists have 'Tetra or Piranha, in any combination' which is more liberal than this list's 'Replace up to 3 Tetras with 1 Piranha each'. Most people never go as high as 3 tetras, but if anyone did it would be in this tank list.

Scorpion fish - I have always had 2 concerns about this unit. The first is that it's weapons are 6+to hit, so it's going to almost always be sitting still to sustain to try get hits. That's not the end of the world but is definitely a factor to consider when choosing formations for an army.
The second is that since the Tracers, Seekers and Submunitions are all Guided, a canny opponent who realises he can take out Tetra scouts really easily can basically turn your Scorpions off the moment the markerlights go out. ("Guided Missiles may only be fired at a target formation that is marked")
That could leave a player with some frustratingly expensive paperweights :D

If it had a built in markerlight or something it would be different (although of course, that still means since its weapons are absolutely dependent on markers, they'd be reduced to firing a max 30cm from the unit if there were no other lights around), or if it simply fired Indirect like a thudd gun and could optionally benefit from ML when available it would be a far less problematic unit.

AX10s are now 350.

Sentry Drone Turrets 0-1 LV, Teleport, Immobile. It probably has too many weapon options (4), and the difference in quality is huge considering they are all priced the same
(eg "Twin Fusion Blasters 15cm MW4+" are good but too short to get many shots, while "Twin Burst Cannon 15cm AP5+" are extremely weak AND too short to get many shots :) )

I like the idea of turrets but not sure about teleporting ones, and in general I'm not sure what to make of this unit, would probably have to try it out to see if it can have a role.

--------------------------------


I hope you find this 2nd opinion useful, as mentioned there is quite a bit of overlap with your most recent ideas.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:24 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2542
Location: UK
My first thought about the turrets was objective bolster in turn 3 but with only 4 models I'm not sure it can work very well. Even with two formations (2 to shift) you probably would be better off using stealths. You're not going to want to use 2 activations to overwatch these guys but they aren't really going to do anything in that role otherwise.

However there are a couple of uses: some MW shots could be very welcome as a coordinated fire option T2 omwards., boosting the firepower of whatever is in a good position. Quite often with Tau I've found myself in a position where I don't quite have the firepower in the right place to break or sufficiently damage a threat due to the way AP and AT are distributed in the army. If the stars align, they could get you crossfire too. Of course, after that they aren't any use. So whether you're ever going to have the points spare to include them, I don't know. Wouldn't mind giving them a go though.

Similarly

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:27 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:

Mechanised Cadre 4 Hammerhead Gunships is worth 200-225 pts of hammerheads and 225 worth of Fire Warriors and three devilfish. ie it is priced exactly like 2 formations in the other tau list, and probably deserves a discount because of the increased size and the fact the hammerheads and infantry aren't a perfect combination (esp once the first devilfish dies).

I wanted this formation to be more like a modern army "combined arms" brigade and make the formation more ad hoc-ish i.e tanks protect troops & troops protect the tanks. Having the HHs in the same formation gives the inf some long range gunnery upgrade with the loss of the Broadsides in the list but also gives the tanks some extra AP ground holding with the ability to use cover and the like. It would also be a reasonable objective grabber/holder once the infantry get dug in.

Let's see how it pans out?
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Scouts - other lists have 'Tetra or Piranha, in any combination' which is more liberal than this list's 'Replace up to 3 Tetras with 1 Piranha each'. Most people never go as high as 3 tetras, but if anyone did it would be in this tank list..

In discussion the idea was the Tetras and Pirahnas would be the Tau equivalent of armoured scout cars during WW2. An "any combination" is a very easy adjustment if we want to make it I'm not tied to any one particular version.
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Scorpion fish - I have always had 2 concerns about this unit. The first is that it's weapons are 6+to hit, so it's going to almost always be sitting still to sustain to try get hits. That's not the end of the world but is definitely a factor to consider when choosing formations for an army.
The second is that since the Tracers, Seekers and Submunitions are all Guided, a canny opponent who realises he can take out Tetra scouts really easily can basically turn your Scorpions off the moment the markerlights go out.

True but really the whole Tau army gets switched off to a degree (i.e lose 50% of your shooting attacks)when the MLs are gone so it's not a stretch - basically the old theory was it was a Missile "gunboat"
but adding a direct shooting weapon is possible if we want.

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
If it had a built in markerlight or something it would be different (although of course, that still means since its weapons are absolutely dependent on markers, they'd be reduced to firing a max 30cm from the unit if there were no other lights around), or if it simply fired Indirect like a thudd gun and could optionally benefit from ML when available it would be a far less problematic unit..

This is a possibility. Quite open to discussion on it as I'm not married to one idea for this unit.

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Sentry Drone Turrets 0-1 LV, Teleport, Immobile. It probably has too many weapon options (4), and the difference in quality is huge considering they are all priced the same
(eg "Twin Fusion Blasters 15cm MW4+" are good but too short to get many shots, while "Twin Burst Cannon 15cm AP5+" are extremely weak AND too short to get many shots :) )

I like the idea of turrets but not sure about teleporting ones, and in general I'm not sure what to make of this unit, would probably have to try it out to see if it can have a role. .

I put in all the variants that FW had modeled to give people options to do as they needed for their own game plans. Trial and error would see some better than others but as this is a starting list they stayed as is.

Teleport was used on the old turrets to simulate how they were used in the Taros campaign whereby they popped up in the middle of nowhere after being seeded similar to a mine field IIRC. The sentry turrets were only Markerlight turrets then, but I figured we could arm them so the FW models could be used and have a bit of forward projection of MLs or area denial instead as a player saw fit. They would become a sort of "speed hump/obstacle" to have to deal with for the opponent.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1832
Location: Oslo, Norway
My 5 cents is that I've never played Tau, but this list has been tempting me for years. I think it's an important part of the Scorpionfish identity that the missiles are alle Guided - I like the suggestion of giving it Markerlight if it's a problem that it gets shut down if the rest of the army disappears, but I'd be disappointed if it lost Guided.

As for the Mech cadre: The Third Phase lists price 4 Hammerheads at 200 points and 6 mechanized Fire Warriors at 225 points, which means that a formation that includes all those units should start at 375 before adjusting for testing. 50 points for an activation is a principle that's worked remarkably well across lists, so you should start there. (Eg: 150 for 4 Hammerheads, 175 for 6 Warriors/3 Fishes, 50 for the activation.)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:48 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:23 am
Posts: 700
Dobbsy wrote:
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:

Mechanised Cadre 4 Hammerhead Gunships is worth 200-225 pts of hammerheads and 225 worth of Fire Warriors and three devilfish. ie it is priced exactly like 2 formations in the other tau list, and probably deserves a discount because of the increased size and the fact the hammerheads and infantry aren't a perfect combination (esp once the first devilfish dies).

I wanted this formation to be more like a modern army "combined arms" brigade and make the formation more ad hoc-ish i.e tanks protect troops & troops protect the tanks. Having the HHs in the same formation gives the inf some long range gunnery upgrade with the loss of the Broadsides in the list but also gives the tanks some extra AP ground holding with the ability to use cover and the like. It would also be a reasonable objective grabber/holder once the infantry get dug in.


All fine, but what I was actually highlighting is the cost of the formation could be more competitive. Pretty much the same thing Ulrik is saying.

Quote:
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Scorpion fish . ... since the Tracers, Seekers and Submunitions are all Guided, a canny opponent who realises he can take out Tetra scouts really easily can basically turn your Scorpions off the moment the markerlights go out.

True but really the whole Tau army gets switched off to a degree (i.e lose 50% of your shooting attacks)when the MLs are gone so it's not a stretch - basically the old theory was it was a Missile "gunboat"
but adding a direct shooting weapon is possible if we want.


True, but 'to a degree' is different from 'totally and completely' :D
When I play against Tau I usually try to have every markerlight formation dead or broken by the end of turn 1. Doesn't always happen, but it's a good plan to have.
If the list featured multiple Scorpion fish this would change from a tactic to the entire game plan :D


Quote:
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Sentry Drone Turrets 0-1 LV, Teleport, Immobile. It probably has too many weapon options (4), and the difference in quality is huge considering they are all priced the same
(eg "Twin Fusion Blasters 15cm MW4+" are good but too short to get many shots, while "Twin Burst Cannon 15cm AP5+" are extremely weak AND too short to get many shots :) )

I like the idea of turrets but not sure about teleporting ones, and in general I'm not sure what to make of this unit, would probably have to try it out to see if it can have a role. .

I put in all the variants that FW had modeled to give people options to do as they needed for their own game plans. Trial and error would see some better than others but as this is a starting list they stayed as is.

Teleport was used on the old turrets to simulate how they were used in the Taros campaign whereby they popped up in the middle of nowhere after being seeded similar to a mine field IIRC. The sentry turrets were only Markerlight turrets then, but I figured we could arm them so the FW models could be used and have a bit of forward projection of MLs or area denial instead as a player saw fit. They would become a sort of "speed hump/obstacle" to have to deal with for the opponent.


No one will ever take Twin Burst Cannon 15cm AP5+ when Twin Fusion Blasters 15cm MW4+ is the same cost and the same range.
The rest of the unit could be tried and tested, but that fact is self-evidently clear :D

(the missile pods probably have a typo "AT5+/AT6+" -- I choose 5 :) )


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:11 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:15 am
Posts: 332
It is really difficult to get enough markerlights into a force drawn from this list.
Most of them are on a vulnerable light vehicle platform, the Tetras, or on the
expensive Skyrays, which are - admittedly - needed for some AA cover.

The extreme vulnerability of the Scorpionfish to losing markerlights makes that problem critical.
I'd like to see it be given its own Markerlight ability. I already think of it as a large Skyray,
weirdly without the AA missiles despite the plethora of other missiles in its magazine.

Having some recon infantry, Mechanised Pathfinders would help address the Markerlight
problem. Attaching elite (?) independent infantry to an armoured group seems a sensible
real world proposition. At least as sensible as adding stealth suits to my mind. At least they
have their own Devilfish transport.

My preference for a mixed Mechanised Infantry formation, from those proposed by others,
was for: 6 Firewarriors, 3 Devilfish, 2 Hammerheads, Skyray, for 425 points.

Realise that probably few people would voluntarily add Hammerheads to a basic Mech Inf
formation so that my idea about moving the Mech Inf to support and allowing cross-attachment
is perhaps unlikely. Although adding a pair of Fire Warriors and a Devilfish to an Armoured
formation could be an attractive upgrade.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:16 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Andrew, so Stealth suits don't match the recon infantry category?

edit- I see your point about Pathfinders but this list is more about vehicles than infantry elsewise why use this list and not the other ones?

On the HH to infantry issue, remember the infantry are added to the tanks in this formation not the other way around. Secondly, the mech formation quickly becomes foot infantry without transports and this means 30cm range shooting only. Put HHs into the equation and the formation has a presence with 75cm shooting game-wide and gives you the ability to use the formation for co-ord attacks when they have no transports left.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:15 am
Posts: 332
Dobbsy wrote:
Andrew, so Stealth suits don't match the recon infantry category?

Oh, Stealth Suits certainly fit the recon infantry slot. I know the fluff suggests they operate [well?] beyond the Forward Line of Own Troops [if that is not a contradiction in terms]. I'd probably even use them for the additional markerlights and better armour/first strike.

Dobbsy wrote:
edit- I see your point about Pathfinders but this list is more about vehicles than infantry elsewise why use this list and not the other ones?

My point was that Pathfinders at least have their own vehicles (in the standard list), so mechanised to an extent.

Dobbsy wrote:
On the HH to infantry issue, remember the infantry are added to the tanks in this formation not the other way around. Secondly, the mech formation quickly becomes foot infantry without transports and this means 30cm range shooting only. Put HHs into the equation and the formation has a presence with 75cm shooting game-wide and gives you the ability to use the formation for co-ord attacks when they have no transports left.

Sorry that (infantry added to an armoured formation) had not been what I'd seen here. The Armoured formations in this list have 6 (base) or 8 tanks and this Mechanised formation has only 4 tanks. The standard Mechanised Infantry has the 6 Firewarriors plus 3 Devilfish so I'd thought the tanks were added to the infantry.

I was mostly responding to your previous options for changing the Mechanised Cadre; I prefered option B/
Dobbsy wrote:
FWIW Some things I was looking at for this list were the following:

Mech Cadre:
remove Gun Drones upgrade
option A/ reduce to 3 HH from 4 HH
option B/ reduce to 2HH and add 1 Skyray
cost to remain the same for testing.


On the Scorpionfish formation, the Skyray upgrade is very vulnerable. Since any enemy AT shots can target warengines or armoured vehicles the only way to protect the Skyray a bit is to hide it behind the Scorpionfish. That does not seem a very cool thing to do - very gamey.

Finally I continue to think giving the Scorpionfish markerlights to at least allow guided missile fire over open sights (30 cm) would help keep the formation slightly viable against the Matt-Shadowsword strategy of killing all the markerlight formations. I'd still prefer to keep it armed with guided missiles, even if the markerlight turret did not get added.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Andrew_NZ wrote:
My point was that Pathfinders at least have their own vehicles (in the standard list), so mechanised to an extent.

Yeah no worries. I'm going to leave them as Tetras for the moment though to keep with the theme. We can adjust if there's a real shortfall for ML in future versions.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
Sorry that (infantry added to an armoured formation) had not been what I'd seen here. The Armoured formations in this list have 6 (base) or 8 tanks and this Mechanised formation has only 4 tanks. The standard Mechanised Infantry has the 6 Firewarriors plus 3 Devilfish so I'd thought the tanks were added to the infantry.

Yeah it's a little different to the main lists as the focus is armour so more tanks everywhere! :D I wanted to have some infantry protection for the tanks but we can always reduce the infantry and boost the tank numbers if we find the formation not working.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
I was mostly responding to your previous options for changing the Mechanised Cadre; I prefered option B/

Me too.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
On the Scorpionfish formation, the Skyray upgrade is very vulnerable. Since any enemy AT shots can target warengines or armoured vehicles the only way to protect the Skyray a bit is to hide it behind the Scorpionfish. That does not seem a very cool thing to do - very gamey.

We could arm the Scorpionfish with an AA missile attack instead.... Optional? Too far?


Andrew_NZ wrote:
Finally I continue to think giving the Scorpionfish markerlights to at least allow guided missile fire over open sights (30 cm) would help keep the formation slightly viable against the Matt-Shadowsword strategy of killing all the markerlight formations. I'd still prefer to keep it armed with guided missiles, even if the markerlight turret did not get added.

Yep, I think a markerlight for the SFish could be trialed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:15 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:49 am
Posts: 141
I hate to sound needy, but are we any closer to a 0.5 release ;D

_________________
Epic hobby blog
http://fuddshobby.blogspot.com.au/
https://www.facebook.com/FuddsEpicHobby/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:14 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Will sort something out this week Fudd. I need to access a different PC to amend the file I have as my current one only has a cut down version of Word which doesn't support all features I used in the original file.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:53 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:49 am
Posts: 141
Legend

_________________
Epic hobby blog
http://fuddshobby.blogspot.com.au/
https://www.facebook.com/FuddsEpicHobby/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 111 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net