Tactical Command
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The Recon formation
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20330		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:54 am ]
Post subject:  The Recon formation
Yme, I have a question for you:
How do you keep your recon formations alive? Is it simple spamming i.e multiple formations (more than 2) so there's always one left hanging about?

I don't, see how these things are worth 175 points now. They die like flies (a simple engagement usually sees mine dead or broken) and their output (unless you're taking 1 tetra to 5 Pirahnas -which isn't really a "recon" formation, it's a fast attack formation) is pitiful given their light weapon load.

I understand they have co-ord fire, but they always did and they died horribly when they were 150 points. So what has changed?

Cheers
Author:  zombocom [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
The main point of them is to be a cheap way to markerlight the opponent, fast. Most lists I've seen take two to three of them, and spread out as much as possible with scout, hiding most of the formation behind cover to protect against shooting. Sure, they'll die to any engagement, but they're cheap enough that if the opponent is wasting activations engaging them then he's not targetting the important stuff. Easily worth the points.

One of the other reasons for the change was a series of playtests we did that showed spamming them at 150 points was hideously broken.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
Why not change the formation set up then i.e making it impossible to spam the hybrid tetra/piranha set up/how you purchase a formation first rather than change points costs? That seems a little cheap in its design.
Author:  Jstr19 [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
The problem with this formation is that there is an internal balance issue between the two units. A formation of 4 or more piranha's is easily worth 200 points but a formation of 4 or more tetra's is only really worth 150. The current solution of the 25 point increase does not address the problems with this formation. It in no way makes the piranha spam list not viable or even less effective (It is now only 21 activations not 22. Oh No.). It IMHO punishes balanced Tau lists that are not taking advantage of piranhas by reducing the activation count.

A 3/3 split is not a good solution either as it is not the optimized mix and in a list that contains Pathfinders and stealth suits a less than optimum does not compete well.

The solution IMHO is to split the formation up into a piranha heavy one for 200 points and a tetra heavy one for 150 points.

As far as keeping them alive goes what Zombo describes is how I manage that. I only ever expose 1 or 2 to fire and if my opponent engages them they are leaving my important formations alone. I never really have a problem keeping the formation active till turn 3.
Author:  yme-loc [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
Jstr19 wrote:
It in no way makes the piranha spam list not viable or even less effective (It is now only 21 activations not 22. Oh No.).


I cant see a possible 3000pts list with over 18 activations, not sure where you get 21 - is that at higher points values?
Author:  yme-loc [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
Dobbsy wrote:
Yme, I have a question for you:
How do you keep your recon formations alive? Is it simple spamming i.e multiple formations (more than 2) so there's always one left hanging about?

I don't, see how these things are worth 175 points now. They die like flies (a simple engagement usually sees mine dead or broken) and their output (unless you're taking 1 tetra to 5 Pirahnas -which isn't really a "recon" formation, it's a fast attack formation) is pitiful given their light weapon load.

I understand they have co-ord fire, but they always did and they died horribly when they were 150 points. So what has changed?

Cheers


I usually take two formations, as to keeping them alive, sometimes they make it to the end of a game (ok not often :) ) - but they add alot to the army as fast scouts, coordinated fire access and markerlights so I have never felt 175pts wasn't worth it.

Its like alot of these fast but fragile formations - in reality if your opponent really wants to destroy them and goes out of his way to do so then there is little that will prevent it - you just have to make sure that to do so they will use more forces than they would want and that those forces will be left exposed and open to counter attack.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
yme-loc wrote:
I usually take two formations, as to keeping them alive, sometimes they make it to the end of a game (ok not often :) ) - but they add alot to the army as fast scouts, coordinated fire access and markerlights so I have never felt 175pts wasn't worth it.

Its like alot of these fast but fragile formations - in reality if your opponent really wants to destroy them and goes out of his way to do so then there is little that will prevent it - you just have to make sure that to do so they will use more forces than they would want and that those forces will be left exposed and open to counter attack.

Hmm I usually take two myself (50/50 split) and once they're gone I don't have anywhere near the fast ML coverage I need so I get a massive drop in firepower. I have usually lost both formations by the end of turn 2 - it's unavoidable if I want to mark any target so I can start reducing the enemy formations. I have to get near enough to do it and leaving even one tetra exposed is enough to usually get clipped. It's worse if you spread out as you can't bring enough FF to bear in the assault.

My opponents have learned to go out of their way to kill them and still had gas left in the tank to take on the rest of my army effectively - I mean in an even activation count if he destroy one of my formations I'm under the bar already then right??. So you might understand my concern over costing them higher than they're really worth. Lose them as easily as that and lose 50% fire power to the rest of my army and it's an up hill struggle from there.

Just some food for thought.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
Quote:
Hmm I usually take two myself (50/50 split) and once they're gone I don't have anywhere near the fast ML coverage I need so I get a massive drop in firepower. I have usually lost both formations by the end of turn 2 - it's unavoidable if I want to mark any target so I can start reducing the enemy formations.

IMO one of the things that causes the Tau to lose is trying to hurt the enemy too early.

Like Marine armies that first need to harry the enemy before committing their main force, turn 1 is often a waiting game for the Tau as they pull the enemy out of position. If they get over-eager and push forwards too soon they'll be mostly Doubling and won't be hitting the enemy strongly enough but will be left too close to the enemy in turn 2.

Plus, as Yme-Loc says, recon are such high priority targets that they'll rarely make it to the end of a game!
So, it's important to have some other mobile Markerlights available. Pathfinders and Skyrays attached to Mech. Fire Warrior formations are great for that (Though the Skyray formation itself is quite over-priced IMO and isn't worth taking, as you're over-paying for their ML ability that gets to be split-up when you take them as single upgrades, and will only very rarely want to use when you're taking a Skysweep formation).
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
Call me silly, but well I'm not happy to sit back for 2 turns waiting for the enemy to double/teleport/air assault into my half and start engaging my troops. That's also a pretty boring way to play the list - one of the exact reasons you wanted to remove the gun line design IIRC. Sure Tau can sit back and castle whatever, but it makes for a pretty boring game if you're not getting forward to take objectives. Recon need to move forward otherwise why bother? - you can just put built in ML units in other formations and wait it out. Dull!

This is turning into a strategy discussion and not the focus of the thread. The focus is the costing of the Recon formation.
Nevermind I can see it's turning into another 75 page discussion so I'll stop talking. Cheers for the reply Yme.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
Quote:
Call me silly, but well I'm not happy to sit back for 2 turns waiting for the enemy to double/teleport/air assault into my half and start engaging my troops.

That's not what I said. What I said is don't over-extend on turn 1.
Author:  Jstr19 [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
When Zombo and I tested the Piranha list we managed to get 21-22 activations within a 3000 point list. There are lists we posted on the forum somewhere. But I think you maybe right the current point values limit it to 17-18. However I would argue due to the changes to TS and drones it is now more effective.

Dobbsy: How many ML formations are you normally taking? Do you rely on 2 recon formations to do your MLing? When I build a Tau list I normally try to have ML's in about 70% of formations.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
My list has generally 6 ML units or various types including 2 recon.
Author:  dptdexys [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
How would changing the points or composition of the formation stop them from being just as easily destroyed.

I'm not arguing wether they are over (or under) priced in any way I just don't understand what difference the cost would make to how they where used and how easily an opponent would get rid of them, unless a significant price drop meant an extra formation was allowed.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
Dexys - so you wouldn't mind paying 200 points for Space Marine scouts then...? My point is you know scouts are worth 150 for their abilities versus killabilities, would you take it on the chin when you know they're over priced, or try to make that different?

Anyway I said my view isn't going anywhere to effect change so no point going on about it, eh?
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Recon formation
I wouldn't mind paying 200 for SM scouts - they are one of the best formations IMO
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