Quote: (zombocom @ 25 Jul. 2009, 15:24 )
I mostly agree with Chroma
Is the world scheduled to end today, because I didn't see it in my calender...
Back to the debate... and where is everyone else?
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| E&C's Tau proposal http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16235 |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
As requested by the Army Champion Honda, please find attached my proposal for the future (final) direction for the Tau army list. Note that I would expect a Tau 'armour' themed army list to follow, which would include all of the non-canon units that have been removed over the last few versions, such as the Moray and the Swordfish, as well as every alternative Hammerhead turret choice. My proposal is contingent on the army champion putting together an 'armoured' theme Tau army list proposal ASAP, to allow all those who have invested time and effort into collecting and converting the absent units a list with which to use them. EDIT: Version 1.07 can be found here. Version 1.06 can be found here. Version 1.05 can be found here. Version 1.04 can be found here. Version 1.03 can be found here. Version 1.02 can be found here. Or click below for Version 1.01: |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
First off, thanks for posting this E&C. Now to rip it apart... *laugh* That's a pretty big boost for markerlights as the entire enemy formation gets marker if even a single unit is in range.  As well, sustaining Guided Missiles will be hitting on a 3+... that's pretty good, along with all the other then improved shooting... certainly makes Tau... shooty! I like the initiative changes. I still don't think the "Armoured Cadre" should be a core formation for the basic Tau list and *especially* not at nine units... just seems like far to big and unwieldy a formation for Tau.  A support formation of base four tanks with the chance to add 2 more would be fine for the base list. Why the two entries for Fire Warrior Cadres?  Why not just "Add 4 Devilfish for +100 points"? since there's no discount or other point changes.  I still believe the basic Fire Warrior Cadre should be 6 Fire Warrior units (add 3 Devilfish if desired). I have no issue with the removed units, personally glad to see them out of the list. Good to see the Human Auxilia returned. |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
I mostly agree with Chroma, the ML boost is too much, especially since the +1 affects GMs as well. My preference would be something along the lines of: When firing at a Marked formation, all AP fire gains +1 to hit, or GMs can be fired. Note that both benefits cannot be claimed. Drop Hammerheads to a support formation, 4 (+2) is a nice size. Note that this is what the peer review called for. A core formation of 9 is silly; this isn't guard. Ditto the two FW formations can be combined. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
Quote: (Chroma @ 25 Jul. 2009, 15:06 ) First off, thanks for posting this E&C. Now to rip it apart... *laugh* ***rolls "brace for impact" leadership test*** That's a pretty big boost for markerlights as the entire enemy formation gets marker if even a single unit is in range.  As well, sustaining Guided Missiles will be hitting on a 3+... that's pretty good, along with all the other then improved shooting... certainly makes Tau... shooty! And the Tau should be shooty, to compensate for their lack of Firefight excellence. I still don't think the "Armoured Cadre" should be a core formation for the basic Tau list and *especially* not at nine units... just seems like far to big and unwieldy a formation for Tau.  A support formation of base four tanks with the chance to add 2 more would be fine for the base list. If it's to be a Core formation then it should be at 9 units, in order to stop the Tau being able to field an armoured tank army with more activations than any reasonable comparison. If moved to becoming a Support Formation, then a formation of 6 would be fine. I'd prefer to avoid a standard formation size of 4 as that doesn't match FW's pack size. Why the two entries for Fire Warrior Cadres?  Why not just "Add 4 Devilfish for +100 points"? since there's no discount or other point changes. I was trying to avoid too many internal brackets and bullet points (something the current list is full of) It also opens up the potential to play about with costs/discounts a bit if desired. My preference would be something along the lines of: When firing at a Marked formation, all AP fire gains +1 to hit, or GMs can be fired. Note that both benefits cannot be claimed. Doesn't match the background IMHO. Note that with the loss of the two missile barge units, the list will have fewer Guided Missiles to sling about anyway. |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 25 Jul. 2009, 15:25 ) And the Tau should be shooty, to compensate for their lack of Firefight excellence. AT4+ would become standard for GMs, even without sustaining. That's just too much for what is identical to an AT6+ krak missile. I'd prefer to avoid a standard formation size of 4 as that doesn't match FW's pack size. A formation size of 4-6 allows either two packs to make a formation of 6, three packs to make one of 5 one of 4, or four packs to make 3 formations of 4, etc etc. It's a nice flexability. |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
As your list is now I can't see anyone taking anything except small ML formations and long ranged big Hammerhead formations. That doesn't actually fix the current problems. The point of removing the AP missiles is to leave only short ranged AP. It's this short-ranged AP that should get a boost with the ML change, not the long ranged AT elsewhere in the list that already does extremely well. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
Then the Markerlights could be restricted to 'just' improving AP shots, and allowing Guided Missiles to fire... |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
Quote: (zombocom @ 25 Jul. 2009, 15:28 ) Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 25 Jul. 2009, 15:25 ) And the Tau should be shooty, to compensate for their lack of Firefight excellence. AT4+ would become standard for GMs, even without sustaining. That's just too much for what is identical to an AT6+ krak missile. Then the basic Guided Missile stat goes from AT5+ to AT6+. Meaning that only other weapons get a boost from this change, not Guided Missiles. |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
Quote: (zombocom @ 25 Jul. 2009, 15:24 ) I mostly agree with Chroma Is the world scheduled to end today, because I didn't see it in my calender... Back to the debate... and where is everyone else? |
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| Author: | Vaaish [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
For upgrades, from firewarriors on are you allowing any upgrade to be taken by any core our support formation outside of the listed exceptions? It seem it could make for some very odd unit parings. |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
Quote: (Hena @ 25 Jul. 2009, 16:09 ) I didn't bother to post as I think the suggestion is a not a good one. *laugh* I think there's more than a "suggestion" here, there's a whole bunch of stuff; you think nothing at all in E&C's proposal is worth examining, Hena? This is specifically what Honda asked for from the community, to not "bother" is a disservice to the list and the community, especially as a NetERC member. Sorry to be harsh, but it's our (the NetERC) job to "bother". |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
Quote: (Hena @ 25 Jul. 2009, 16:23 ) Possibly. However I don't see this a good way to go. What about markerlights coming more in line with their use in 40k as a shooting "enhancer", not just a Guided Missile guide? I think that's a concept worth exploring as it allows Tau to "emulate" support fire in a way. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | E&C's Tau proposal |
I like it somewhat. Sure Hammerheads should be removed from Core and added to Support as 6 +2 formation. GMs to-hit value should be AT6+ so with Markerlights (and only then)they can be fired with AT5+. Markerlights shouldn't be combineable with Sustain orders. |
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