It's funny after all the debate about "death incarnate at close range", I'm not really seeing it in the unit stats....

Can someone in the know tell me what "Death incarnate at close range" is supposed to actually look like? I fail to see how we've ramped up the Tau deadliness at close range.

1/ We've slashed the GMs so they don't work in close without a ML so I see this largely as a downgrade in firepower (doubly so, given it looks like we have to take less main combat units to up our ML unit content and the weakness of most ML units).

2/Disrupt weapons hit on 5+ so unless our enemy is in the open we're hitting on 6's. Given most mech infantry hug their vehicles in the open gaining the modifier to hit = hardly death incarnate.

3/FWs got a 4+ 30cm attack and a 15cm 5+ disrupt . They hit enemy in cover on 5's and 6's.... Ooh enemy will be terrified of the massive amount of disrupt hits

4/Drones get a 15cm 5+ disrupt attack (see point 2) meaning they are pretty slack if enemy is in cover and they have to expose themselves to enemy counter attack. Granted this is the apparent balance for this list, but really.. 100 points for them now when they can't be taken as a stand alone unit??

5/Smart missiles ignore cover but hit on 5+. Pretty much the same as the FW 4+ attack. Hardly death incarnate if you have to move up to fire....

6/One unit with 4+ MW at 15cm and one with 3+AP disrupt at 15cm does not = death incarnate


Is it supposed that the 30cm ML range on some units will make GM weaponry available to the equation to make Tau "death incarnate"?

My view on this is: Why give the Tau such a massive range on guided weapons when I'm guessing without long range ML coverage that most of the time they won't get to fire.

I'm pretty sure throwing piecemeal ML units forward to mark enemy units will end up with said ML units handing over victory points to opponents. Throwing formations with ML attachments forward to simply get target marking at 30cm to unleash "death incarnate" when Tau really don't appear death incarnate, seems to be flawed.

Am I missing something here? I just can't see Death Incarnate many places in this list. I need guidance on this.

Cheers

Wasn't the discussion that the Tau *SHOULD* be "Death Incarnate" at close range... but weren't... *laugh*

I don't think "Death Incarnate at close range" has been expressed as a design goal by either of the Army Champions, so, you're not actually missing anything.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

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I'm certainly in favour of close ranged, high powered options, but don't kid yourself that the GM change has anything to do with increasing close-ranged firepower. That was soley for balance and matching the background. It was generally considered that Tau were overpowered, which has been the catalyst for many of the changes.

However, if you mean this topic seriously rather than just as another go at slagging off the GM change then I do agree to an extent. There probably should be more close ranged firepower, such as the short ranged MW hammerhead varient. The jet pack change should allow the Crisis suits to use their MW shot more often.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

but don't kid yourself that the GM change has anything to do with increasing close-ranged firepower.

There probably should be more close ranged firepower, such as the short ranged MW hammerhead varient.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I never thought they should be death incarnate.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, for balance reasons their properly prepared short range firepower should have a chance of breaking the enemy comparable to an assault, but less decisive as it entails less risk to the Tau.

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Neal

To paraphrase the above into game terms then, the balance for the Tau is to keep them from being a static gunline with too much long range firepower and from having to close enough to get ripped up in engagements.


What was so frustrating for the Imperial commanders is the fact that they usually failed to get to grips with the Tau. The Tau used asymmetrical warfare as a balancer instead of trying to stand up to them, head to head.

The major concern about earlier versions of the Tau was how utterly boring they were to play against due to the "gunline" nature of the army. It was an agreed upon design goal to make the list more about close ranged firepower and mobility like they are in 40k, rather than a long ranged static barrage like they were in 4.x.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I'd never looked at the Tau before v4.X... but I located a v3 pdf the other day... and the Tau were brutal at all ranges in there... was the "not good at assaults" thing only started in the v4 series?

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I'd never looked at the Tau before v4.X... but I located a v3 pdf the other day... and the Tau were brutal at all ranges in there... was the "not good at assaults" thing only started in the v4 series?

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

pure mech

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Pure mech to me means everything is either a vehicle or infantry carried in a vehicle, so pure mech = FW+Dfish, HHeads, Tetras and Stingrays/Scorpfish.

As an aside, I found a hard copy of v3.0 ... wow, FF4+ all over the place!

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Well, if you do a direct port from 40k, you end up with:
-Crisis suits have Twin Missile Pods: 30cm AP4+/AT5+, Twin Plasma Rifles: 15cm AP4+ (and small arms), and Twin Fusion Blasters:  MWFF4+.  

-Stealth suits have 2 or 3 Burst Cannon: 15cm AP5+, one Fusion Blaster MWFF5+, and at least FF3+ (or maybe FF5+ Extra Attacks +2).  

-FW have a 30cm shot or two (6 pulse rifles at range are equal to 2 heavy bolters, but it works better to combine the shots to AP3+ or 4+ instead of 2xAP5+) and FF3+ (just like Devastator marines or Dark Reapers)*.  

That's the Death Incarnate at close range that all the 40k Tau players are used to.  It's purely the Big 3 infantry.

Tau CC values suck, and rightly so, with the exception of the battlesuits.  Stealth suits are just as strong and have just as many CC attacks as an equal number of Assault Marines, so that's CC3+ (ok, drop a pip for lack of dedicated CCWs, grenades, and low initiative, but thats still CC4+).  Crisis suits aren't quite as nasty, but 3 crisis suits + 2 drones (what's assumed on one stand) is 9 attacks at S5 and 4 at S3.  That compares favorably to Tac or Dev Marines 11-12 attacks at S4, so CC4+, dropped a pip for lack of dedicated CCWs, grenades, and low initiative is CC5+.  (Due to the WS table, Tau actually hit Marines on a 4+)

Problem is, that goes against the directive from JJ that Tau aren't supposed to do Engage actions in E:A.  How do you force that?  Well, we stretched the Crisis suits weapon range a bit, to: 45cm AP4+/AT5+, 30cm AP4+ and 15cm MW4+, FF5+ (no MWFF, but otherwise dropped one pip compared to a direct port).  Stealth Suits don't have the Fusion Blaster in E:A, so they lose the MWFF (Fair enough), but they really lost their FF and CC abilities (if we ONLY drop them one pip, that's FF4+ and CC5+, but they're FF5+ First Strike and CC6+ in the list).  Fire Warriors got a 30cm AP4+ and a 15cm AP5+ Disrupt, to somewhat make up for the fact that Tau don't go for CQB, instead clearing areas with fire, but they lost out on their FF capabilities at FF5+ (again, that's 2 pips from a direct port).  

CC abilities got smashed to CC6+ across the board, which is OK for Fire Warriors and Pathfinders (frankly, Tau lose to IG in close combat most days), but the Crisis and Stealth suits should be better, as discussed.

Continuing the direct port:
- PFs have a 30cm AP5+ Disrupt Sniper and a 15cm AP5+ Disrupt, but are FF5+ or so, since they don't have the rapid-fire capabilities of the FW.  They should be CC6+, just like the FW.

-Broadsides have that 75cm AT2+ and a secondary weapon, AP5+ Ignore Cover (should be 15cm, but we stretched it to 30), with FF5+ (again, no rapid-fire capabilities).  Broadsides should be CC6+, they're pretty helpless by themselves, but do (rarely) kill things in CC, so CC6+.

-Vehicles have a long-range primary weapon, with really short-range secondary weapons (15cm at best), either 2x 15cm AP5+ or 15cm AP5+ Ignore Cover (we're using 30cm Ignore Cover, because we stretched the weapons on the Broadsides).

* That FF3+ comes from the fact that 6 Dark Reapers have 12xS5AP3 shots going downrange at BS4, so that's 8 hits.  5 Devastators have 6xS5AP4 shots and 6xS4AP5 shots at BS4, 4+4 hits.  6 Fire Warriors have 12xS5AP5 shots at BS3, 6 hits... Oh, wait, we're assuming the effect of Markerlights in the rest of the shooting, and only splitting the ML effect out for GMs, so that's 12xS5AP5 shots at BS4, 8 hits.

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I really think that the FW need to bump up their non-engage range firepower one pip over a direct port if we're going to drop the FF and CC stats, but I realize that's not likely to happen without a price increase (which we should avoid due to the loss of activations).

We need to test the heck out of the 30cmAP4+/15cmAP5+Disrupt option first, before we start monkeying around with the FW again.

If I'm lucky, I'll be able to start testing soon, a couple folks at the FLGS have found some interest in Epic, including the owner.

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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

Pure mech to me means everything is either a vehicle or infantry carried in a vehicle, so pure mech = FW+Dfish, HHeads, Tetras and Stingrays/Scorpfish.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

From Dictionary.com:

4. Military. to equip with tanks and other armored vehicles.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

From Dictionary.com:

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter