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Drone formations

 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:06 am 
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Unfortunately this shows how out of date I am with the Tau as I thought Option 3 was already part of the list.

So I agree bring in Option 3 straight away and try the increased size of independant formation to 6 for 150pts.

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 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:23 am 
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Drones have always been an obvious problem. Whenever people talk about breaking Tau lists raising activations using drones has always been used. Hell the first Tau list iteration did it the first time the WPS played Epic at the CC (and won).

I'd like to add to your list another point - Tigersharks. In the background they carry 14 drones (3 units in epic terms). A formation of two could naturally carry a formation a 6. A vote for 6 strong formations?

A further issue is heavy drones - what's happening with ML's and what's happening with these. Should they be amalgamated into the same unit and it contain stats from both?

Another consideration is the special rules that affect drones.
You have expendable (which I think is universally agreed to be not applicable to all expendable formations).
You have the 'garrison' rule, that is drones allow the unit they are with to still garrison if otherwise able to.
And finally the jetpack rule which allows drones to either ensure their demise doesn't blastmarker too many allies or that cc reliant troops like terminators can ever touch them (did you realise these chaps can manoeuvre 20cm in response to an attack? Hell they could shift round so much that they could use enemy warengines to block los and all sorts :) ).

And finally the design consideration that drones are built into unit stats already. Should then drones be separate at all? Or perhaps heavily limited? (Say each formation of Tigersharks comes with a drone formation already loaded, or an air assault formation of firewarriors have drones with them as separate units.)

I do feel the 50 point bracket should be stuffed with drones :)
That is every formation gets the chance to add drones for 50 points. Of course how many drones and what they can do depends on the above!

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 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:40 am 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 24 Sep. 2008, 10:23 )

Drones have always been an obvious problem. Whenever people talk about breaking Tau lists raising activations using drones has always been used. Hell the first Tau list iteration did it the first time the WPS played Epic at the CC (and won).

I don't remember the drones being a problem, the Crisis Suits, Broadsides and Hammerheads were worse.

I do remember a rather nasty Seige Masters army which I also had to face as well that weekend.

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 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:45 am 
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And the siegers remember being out power gamed by the Tau and those drones were a key reason it was a draw!  :sulk:  

But yes other stuff was always worse, you could simply out power and out activate your opponent using line formations without resorting to drone trickery!

But yes, it was a silly tourney!  :p

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 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:12 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 24 Sep. 2008, 12:37 )

Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 24 Sep. 2008, 12:23 )

I'd like to add to your list another point - Tigersharks. In the background they carry 14 drones (3 units in epic terms). A formation of two could naturally carry a formation a 6. A vote for 6 strong formations?

Possibly. However then one would need to add the special rule that a formation of them can carry Drones into the list. Which would be a bit ... iffy.

Hena they already can. And transport rules are already laid out in detail.

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 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:21 pm 
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It doesn't and there's a FAQ entry that says you can't split a formation between two or more WEs in the same formation. That does lead to the option of having the drones be an upgrade for the Tigersharks though.

Most of my experience with Expendable is from the 'nid list.  I hoping they're the same rule (no BMs from death of expendable unit). In the 'nid list it's impossible to have an expendable unit (brood)in a formation without having one unit that is not expendable (synapse).

Considering that expendable is a subset of the grot rule (which itself makes note that the rule only works when non-grotz are in the formation as well) I think expendable should be amended to follow suit as well.

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 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:28 pm 
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So no one can do it but two armies already can? :)
I've used and seen others use 8 strong drone formations dropped from the current nasty tigershark pairs without problems.

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 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:57 pm 
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Not that I agree with the FAQ entry, but it does explicitly state that it isn't legal. Either those armies (which one other than Tau?) need a special rules or people should be announcing this house rule before they play.




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 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:18 pm 
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Please pardon the momentary digression to 40k-land.

In the 3e Codex:Tau, the only two 'Fast Attack' choices available to the Tau were Pathfinders and independent drone formations.  In the 4e Codex:Tau Empire, Vespids also compete for inclusion in the Fast Attack slot, along with Piranhas.  Ignoring the competition for a minute, independent drone formations have always been part of the Tau forces, acting as fast flanking troops.  Gun Drones are just as well-armored as Fire Warriors, and twinlinked BS2 is a little better than BS3 (55% hit vs. 50%).  The difference is in the weapon itself, since Pulse Carbines cause Pinning in 40k (and are only 18" range).  Unless *absolutely* needed for game balance, Drones should stay with the same Save, CC and FF as Fire Warriors, since they have the same stats in 40k.

I'd like to see Independent Drone formations kept in the list, as they're something of a key part of the Tau way of war.  (There are NO expendable living troops, but nonliving machines/drones are expendable).  Since there's no Leader, a formation of drones should be 6.  Also, there's no reason for the 'Expendable' rule as written in the Ork list (including the line about 'Expendable only applies when there are non-Expendable units in the same formation') to apply to Independent drone formations.  

================
As far as the Tigershark drone delivery system goes, 14 drones is a little above the minimum for 3 units (4 per base) and is right at the limit for 2 units (7 per base), but I'm not sure that the ability to deliver drones to the backfield is something that we want.  This needs some more playtesting.

================

Basically, put me down for #3 immediately, followed by #2.  Removing the independent formations is the last thing I want to do.

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 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:49 pm 
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Hmmm... reducing the move to match the Crisis suits (I don't like the speed reduction for the tanks) makes sense.  I like it!

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 Post subject: Drone formations
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:23 pm 
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In general, I think Onyx's regimen of costing correctly should be the answer we try first as a base.
That said, I think reduction in speed is fine. It's not unit-breaking and is a good way to reduce effectiveness a tad. As I've mentioned previously elsewhere, I would also cost them higher as independant formations. They do have a few items in their stat line that make them quite useful in numbers from what others have said. 125? 150?

I think they need to be a 4 unit formation for the Tigershark option. If you choose drones you do so fully understanding they are a weaker formation numbers-wise. So they shouldn't go up to a 6 unit formation IMO.





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