Tactical Command
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Notes on version 4.4.3
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13519		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  CyberShadow [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
I have now posted the latest version of the Tau list for Epic Armageddon version 4.4.3.

I have also put together a few notes to outline some of the more major changes, and reasoning behind these decisions.

Force Org and Selection
All auxiliary formations selected for a force must be of the same type - human, kroot or vespid.

Upgrades
I did look at a way of limiting the number and variety of upgrades permitted with regards to the Support Formations - points were made that the IG dont allow upgrades to Support Formations. However, this would then require a larger variety of Core Formations (the IG have twice as many Core options), and this would in turn shift emphasis in the list.

Barracuda
Changed to 2 for 175 points (in line with FW packs)
These have been changed to a pair, rather than three, to conform with FW packaging. However, I dont know if this on its own deals with the perceived issue of the value of them compared to the TigerShark (or other, including Eldar) aircraft. But, I remain to be convinced that this is an issue. If this problem remains, my next step would be to either reduce the TigerSharks save to a 6+, or change the heavy interceptor missiles to seeker missiles instead.

Broadsides
Changed 'railgun' name to 'broadside railguns'.

Devilfish and Hammerheads
Movement reduced to 25cm, with all variant chasis - reduced consolidation move.

Crisis Suits
Dropped missile pods to 5+/5+, added twin-linked plasma blasters: 30cm, AP4+.
These were reverted back to more all round forces, dropping the missile pods by a single point, and returning the seperate plasma blasters. This brings them back to the way they were in 4.4.1.

Deflector Shield
Added a note regarding AP shots, to the AT shot description.

Great Knarlocs
Removed to section VI. These are rarely used, have no models and dont contribute a lot to the Kroot formation.

Hero and Custodian
Hero: two pinpoint attacks only (dropped two missile attacks). Custodian: two missile attacks only (dropped one pin-point attack), and reduced by 50 points.
These previously had better forepower than Marines. Now, the two vessels operate differently.

Markerlight Sentry Turrets
Halved numbers to one group per 1000 points.

Moray
Increased cost by 25 points to 325, limits numbers in 2700 points games.

ScorpionFish
Increased cost by 25 points to 250.

Sniper Drone Team
Removed to section VI. These again have no dedicated model, and are difficult to fit and balance into this scale of game. They may return, but I want to put them on a back burner for now.

General notes
There are a couple of issues that remain contentious, but which have not been changed. This is because they are contentious, and because I will be changing the focus of development for the Tau shortly, and these issues will be dealt with then. There are a few directions that the Tau list needs to take, and therefore there are still some changes that I would like to make soon, but which I dont want to put into this version due to concerns about rocking the list for tournamaent play too much at this stage. This does not mean that I am going to leave them out, but that the way that the Tau list develops will alter a little, with myself taking a stronger driving force in it.

I will now be very busy for a week, and so I may not be visible on these boards for a few days. I will keep up with discussion. Then, when things calm down at home, I will be presenting a development itinerary and my thoughts on where development progresses from here.

Thanks.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
At almost 1700 words, the Special Rules are beyond Jervis' recommended absolute maximum of 1200 words (Which he set out for the exceptionally divergant Tyranid army list).

As regards the army list, although the changes may provide more balance, I don't expect that the gameplay experience will be less frustrating than the previous SG list version.
Author:  rpr [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
Quick observations:
 - Kroot Hounds are more expensive than Carnivores but are equal or inferior in every aspect
 - 75 points for 4x 30cm move units which do not take blast markers??
  (btw, couldn't find sniper drone team from upgrades)

As Epic:A has always been about activation count and grabbing lone objectives, those gun drones really seem off-balance. I have seen them in action, do not know how much they have changed, but weren't nice at old list and do not seem to be now either.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
Thanks for your work here CS but, overall, I'm a bit disappointed with this update. I don't think it did anything close to what people are hoping for for balance or play style. There have been a few good ideas floated around that don't seem to be taken up as a new option - e.g some of the special rules blurbs had been adjusted to reduce their size in word  count.

Personally, I was hoping for a bit more of a "fresh breeze" in design and maybe also a paring down of unneeded unit types to reduce the list size somewhat. I tried that to some degree in my proposed list. I don't think my list had much of a chance to be examined by many before you locked the board. I'm not saying my list was exactly what was needed but I've played a lot of Tau and my recommendations weren't just based on idle conjecture they were aimed at trying to balance a list that quite a few people think is out of whack.

On with my critique...


Disappointing you didn't make the barracuda an dedicated interceptor and truely differentiate between the 'cuda and tigershark's roles.

MW back with crisis suits is a good return.

Seriously, why do we still have vespids in the list?? If the sniper drone team is out because "These again have no dedicated model, and are difficult to fit and balance into this scale of game" why then do we persist in keeping the vespids?

Removing the Sniper drone team is a good move.

Is the reason for upping points on the Scorpionfish a compromise because some people think it's a supposed "game breaker" and some didn't want to ditch the vehicle?.

Why is 2700 points a factor in costing the Moray? Almost no one I see playing Epic plays 2700 point games and reports on it. Why didn't the Moray just get costed at 350 like most folks here seemed to agree was more accurate?

Sentry turrets adjustment is fairer.

Do we truely need Heavy Gun Drones??

And the swordfish is still there? Why, oh why?

Anyway, thanks again for whipping this list up and unlocking the boards :D
Author:  CyberShadow [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
Thanks for the comments so far, guys. To quickly respond to a couple of things...

I dont doubt the issue of number and size of the special rules text - although this was never mentioned when I met with Jervis earlier this week. This meeting did help me to get a bit of focus, and reaffirm a few things on my mind.

I have been deliberately conservative this round of changes. Partly, this is because I want to get a few of the little details aligned before trying to balance issues that cross units, and partly because I am going to focus on major list issues in detail in a week or two. I did read through all of the threads and posts since the last version again - part of the reason why this takes so long - and this round of changes are largely uncontested.

Dobbsy, I did look through your proposals, but feel that I dont want to make such sweeping changes without getting a bit more feedback on some of the issues suggested first. I am very aware that radical changes which end up being unpopular really harm the tournament players perception of the Tau list, and cut down future playtesting at this level.

It would certainly not take much for me to drop Vespids to section 6. While I noted the opinions on a 50 point rise for the Moray, I did feel that this was a large jump in a single revision. If this opinion holds, I am happy to increase the points again, but I want to get some playtest experience first. Increasing a points cost by 1/6 just to limit numbers in a certain sized game is skating on thin ice, as it quickly makes the unit not worth the points value.

The sentry turrets caused a bit of back and forth. Ideally, I would like to have these as an objective upgrade, similar to the Eldar Wraithgate, but I felt that being able to place these in your opponents set up zone, before they place garissons, would cause more problems than it solves.

Heavy Drones. I thought that people liked these? I would be happy to cull them, personally.

Swordfish. This is a tank that I really like. I dont see a reason to remove it.

Thanks. Keep the comments coming.
Author:  asaura [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
Quote: (CyberShadow @ 12 Sep. 2008, 12:46 )

Devilfish and Hammerheads
Movement reduced to 25cm, with all variant chasis - reduced consolidation move.

It's not consolidation. It's countercharge.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
Swordfish. This is a tank that I really like. I dont see a reason to remove it.
Firstly, it doesn't really serve any purpose other than to fill up 25 points in a list IMO. HH-RC do pretty much the same thing as the swordfish with a minimal reduction in to-hit stats. Secondly, it's an extra unit type that isn't totally required and its removal would help cull the unit types in the list - something most recognise as a necessary evil.
Heck, I like the Scorpionfish but I proposed its removal in my list because we just can't have everything we want and something's gotta give. I proposed it's removal because it's really not a totally necessary unit - the list would survive without it. Hard choices need to be made.

Anyway, I'm keen to know what "major changes" you have install for the list in the next couple of weeks :D
Author:  gnurcombe [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:46 am ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
I have read over the new list and just have One question : Why was the tanks speed dropped to 25cm .

Just wondering .

Regards
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
To lower their ability to fight assaults (30cm move gives you a 10cm counter charge which allows you to spread you formation out more but still consolidate enough to resist a clipping assault). Fairy snuff ont he hammerheads, but I don't know if you need to do it on the devilfish, they are faster in 40k background.

So with no major changes it’s just now balancing what’s there? Fairy snuff, Epic can after all have different relative power between units and formations than 40k. With rapid Tau advance in tech stuff like aircraft could now be superior to the other races in the time frame for this army. I think it will remain tough to justify some formations in this list. And others should simply change points. But fair enough. I shall endeavour to pin you down one day CS and demonstrate the Tau activation horde, Tau GM army (versions 1 and 2), Manta drops and air lists! :)

I doubt this list will ever improve much balance wise than it already is for tournaments, but the sportsmanship system might be enough deterrent to min max stuff or take too many of the very effective formations, so on that basis you could finish it fairly soon.
Author:  gnurcombe [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:36 am ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
Well i guess i will go and use the forge world list as those are other people where doing. As i do not like the change in slowing the tanks down.

I have never assaulted with my tanks i just keep them back and shoot.Till the get taken out by the artillery.

So have fun with list.

Regards
Author:  Dobbsy [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
As i do not like the change in slowing the tanks down.

Well you can't have everything Gnurcombe... Is 5cm a really big difference?? I doubt it. To go and play the FW list just because of one little adjustment to speed on a tank??? Instead of throwing a hissy fit, stamping your feet and running off, how about trialling this list with the change so we can get some feedback?  I've yet to see a batrep from you...
Well, not that that's unusual as a few of the people here who "supposedly" play Tau are reknowned for their views but pretty much no input batrep-wise. Some have even said they flat-out can't be arsed doing it....  :sus:
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
Quote: (gnurcombe @ 14 Sep. 2008, 01:36 )

Well i guess i will go and use the forge world list as those are other people where doing. As i do not like the change in slowing the tanks down.

I have never assaulted with my tanks i just keep them back and shoot.Till the get taken out by the artillery.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. The 10cm counter charge is for defending against assaults. For those armies without artillery :) Like Marines who have to get there with a FF formation (or admittedly several warhounds) to get rid of lurking skimmers.

To be fair though if all your chaps d is fight artillery duels you would notice the difference in speed the least!
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Notes on version 4.4.3
Actually a fair number use it as its a) published b) not needing stuff cractbuilt and c) think its more fun than the sg list.
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