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Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
Jstr19
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:13 am 
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Ok i'll have to review the rules we have been using for air transports. cheers mate.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:34 am 
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Well, as the rules are written what you describe with the Manta is (I think) possible. As the Planetfall rules explicitely allow each formation to make its own activation. So you could indeed drop a Manta in infront of the enemy on, say, Advance orders, have it roll on up to within 15cm of something and blow something else up then activate the Supreme Commander to do a combined assault with the Grenadiers, to do more or less what you described (or activate the SC without combined assault to attack if the grenadiers managed to land close enough I suppose, in which case you'd hav eunactivated grenadiers in someone's face as well). And probably pretty badly maul one or two formations on the opposing side on turn 1.
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Jstr19
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:57 am 
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I played 2 games with the list today. One against Necrons and one against lost and the Damned. I won both but the necron game was more due to luck than skill. Zombocom had to pass on of two rolls to probably win that game and failed both.

In the second game I took

XV29's +2
Leman Russ
2x Air cav
stingrays
2x Morays
and 2x Tiger sharks

my oponent adanced forward for two turns and I manage to shoot up his formations and engage what was left.

The general consensus was that the list was fairly balanced but Grenadiers should probably be 250 basic.
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Nerroth
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:49 am 
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Wow, that's more wins than I've had with them!


Thanks for the feedback - I guess it wouldn't hurt to go with 250 and see how things go.


I wonder, though - if there is to be a divide between the Scout-ness of Grenadiers on the ground and Grenadiers in the air (which I'm not 100% sold on right this moment), would it be an idea to make the non-scouts 225 and the scouts 250?


As far as the Manta-assault thing goes, I see what you mean, but it a pretty large points sink, compared to having a T-hawk or Landing Craft stuffed with Marines, backed up by teleporting Terminators.

Plus, can't the T'au list use the likes of Kroot and Vespid in a Manta for an assault, too? (Though they lack the regular Commander rule, they do get co-ord fire with the right command choices...)




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Jstr19
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:15 pm 
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We thought 50 points was an okay increase because we reasoned that the extra AT5+ shot is worth around 25points and the disrupt ability on the Pulse carbines was worth about 25points. The rest of the list seemed ok.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:56 pm 
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If you drop scouts off the ground-based ones I think 225 is okay. Then you can't garrison them unless you leave the chimera at home (And who's gonna do that on a model with a 15cm range, really, unless they're air-dropped?) and they have substantially less ground-covering ability.
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Nerroth
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:51 am 
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Okay.

I wonder if there is a way to list the Scouts option in the one data sheet - it seems like a waste to have a whole new data sheet done up for each kind.

Maybe Scouts (airborne companies only) in the notes section?

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:19 am 
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you could include it as an upgrade. 25 points to upgrade the grenadiers to have the scout ability.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:03 am 
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The only problem with making it an upgrade is it opens the possibility of having air companies cheaper. And since the valks move 35cm and are scout the lack of scouting on the infantry is less of detriment there to begin with. When you can double 70cm garrison is somewhat less useful (Though admittedly you can't do a deployment zone strike as they stand, currently, without garrison at least on the 15cm guns the infantry has).
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Nerroth
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:07 pm 
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If I add in the distinction, the 250 for the air cav will not be optional.

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Soren
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:18 am 
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So virtual no changes on sight. Sad, very sad. As the list is now it will not be played, at least not in our groups, and to be honest, this is good. Sorry mate. This list violates too many rules of list designing. Without insulting you you should really take a look on Hena?s Scion of Iron list. This is the way a list should be designed. But we have spoken about this already.


...Tau players will hate me for this  :blush: :(

Soren




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Jstr19
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:22 am 
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just some thoughts on the list after another playtest.

I would like to see the commanders Armour Save reduced to a 4+. the 5+ reinforced on stealth suits is to represent the stealth field not the quality of armour. reduce the silenced burst cannons to AP4+ disrupt to represent the lack of training with the weapon or something like this. AP3+ appears too much even on the Tau equivalents.

I would like to see the leman russ company reduced to 8.

Despite my earlier suggestion I am still not sure about 250 points for grenadiers. are they really 25% better than storm troopers?

at the moment in my opinion the list is essentially a elite guard list and E&C and Zombocom don't think there is anything too much wrong with it other than Super heavy tanks appearing redundant. Tau Moray's are so much better.
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Nerroth
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:09 am 
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SOren:

Your loss - though I feel as if you were never gonna warm to things anyway, so at least you were straightforward enough to say as much now.


Jstr19:
I'm gonna go with the 4+ Disrupt for the burst cannon - how abut 4+ armour with Invulnerable Save representing shield drones on the 29 stands?

I think that was suggested earlier, and I can go for that.


What about 200 for the non-scout Grenadiers, and 225 for the air cav? (for 200 points, compared to Strom Troopers, you get better ranged fire, but lose the Scout ability and the access to Valkyries. Seem fair enough?)


Russ company is going down to 8, with the TS upgrade down to 2 instead of 3.

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Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers

v7.3 pdf

Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Soren
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:46 pm 
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(Nerroth @ Dec. 15 2007,04:09)
QUOTE
SOren:

Your loss - though I feel as if you were never gonna warm to things anyway, so at least you were straightforward enough to say as much now.

Mhm, you do not understand me and my intention behind the post. So I will be more clear:

The list is crap as it is now and if you do not build it properly, its not worth looking at. It is neighter funny for the opponent, nor enough feeling of a IG Traitor list (they are traitors, and they already know it) Now it?s only a Elite IG list with superduper toys. I don?t know why nobody is saying this so clearly, but I will. Again this is not against you. You did quite good background and there are some good thoughts, but you are fixed to get in the "Tau are a better universe" feeling into the list and over this you forgot the basic rules of designing.

I will give them a try if I see them balanced with not only goodies but some major flaws their commander has to fight with. +25 pts to several formations will not change this. As the list is now it is no challenge but waste of time.

Its difficult to do a clear statement without getting the person behind the critizised list taking it personal. :blush:  


my 0,002 cent

Soren




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:18 am 
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I'm missing on how they have no drawbacks... They're completely lacking artillery companies, or really any artillery at all, have no access to hammerheads except the single one in the tank co, which is shrinking. They seem to have a more elite-IG-infantry feel then I'm really that comfortable with, to be honest, but most of what they lack I think is a really distinct feel that they are different then IG with Tau allies. Not that they're particularly over-good in most places (A few, like the suits, are probably too good but I've mentioned those potentially coming down a few times already).

At a glance the list doesn't look all that broken, beyond issues with fielding tons of grenadiers, but it doesn't feel enough like its own list to really draw me to it, personally.
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