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Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5

 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:09 am 
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Yeah but SHT's are rare in the Guard and the AM are a bit fussy about them. If they left a dozen behind don't be surprised to see a localised crusade to get them back!

And can you imagine the reverse engineering? :) This weapon is so advanced we cannot possibly understand it, yet it seems they move it into position with a hand crank.

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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:12 am 
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As opposed to the salvage from that Warhound on T'ros?

There's no sign of an Explorator fleet being sent to recover that - and surely the salveageable wreck of a Titan would be higher on the AdMech list of priorities...


Even the AdMech can't get away from the issue of how strapped for resources the Imperium is out in the Fringe - and when you consider the loss of Gryphonne IV, the evidence of new traitor flyers from Xana II and so forth, one would imagine the Adeptus Mechanicus has bigger headaches to worry about than a dozen or more Baneblades left behind in a withdrawal from a world on the far side of the galaxy, even if it is in the face of the bothersomely 'heretical' tau...


Also, the Fio have had a few centuries in which they have been able to play around with gue'la tech - and they seem to be pretty adept at these things.





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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:30 am 
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They didn't need to, the Warhound was lost on the front line, and the front line then passed onwards; The Ad-Mech undoubtedly would have had no problems recovering their fallen Warhound.

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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:36 am 
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cool, Fluff discussion.

I have only one question: Where the hell are the weaknesses of this list? I do not see any. And as long as the whole list is barbie-shiny the best of the best ever wet dreamed gear conglomerate, it will never get the feeling of a real worthy list. (and will never get a chance)

just my 0,002 cent

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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:19 pm 
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E&C:

Need to go check IA3 - I thought the withdrawal of the Titan squadron precipitated a withdrawal by the hitherto-advancing Imperials, though I guess you'd be right if the AdMcch had enough time to extract the wreckage, they could do so.

Interestingly enough, though, the general withdrawal from T'ros was far more of a shambles, with plenty of armour and weaponry left behind during the extraction, although the level of order was of course rather higher among the more valuable/disciplined/mobile forces than for others.


Soren:


Despite the impression that you are pretty much having a go at me with every post you put in this thread, I'll bite.

For one, having no Guard artillery is a significant drawback - it's a rare IG force I'd see that doesn't stock up heavily on Basilisks.

For another, regular IG have no restrictions on the armour they can take - and get access to Demolishers, Deathstrikes, Griffons, Hellhounds and so on).

Third, the regular IG have no major restrictions on things like Vultures - as long as you have the support formation slots you need, you can max out all you like, whereas here they only show up if you have Airborne Grenadier Companies on the table. No Sentinels or Rough Riders, either - and as has been mentioned, no Commissars.

Fourth, how many Fire caste formations are available here? Two - Tetras and Stingrays. And the latter has been nerfed in 4.4.2, to boot.

No Crisis or Broadside suits, no Hammerhead formations, no Scorpionfish, no regular Pathfinders, no Drone formations...

...and no Vespids, for that matter.

I deliberately picked the likes of Tetras and Stingrays because, at the time, they were less popular additions to the T'au list, plus I like both types of units, and the idea of having them work in tandem.

Fifth, even the Air caste - who are the most prominent tau force in this list - have limited access to certain toys compared to 4.4.2 - no AX-1-0s, restricted Orca access, and 'only' 0-1 on the Manta. Also, with hardly any Skyrays on the table compared to in a tau list, the role of the Air caste flyers becomes somewhat different to what T'au list users might get away with.

Sixth, a notable difference - no unit with the Tau Commander rule, which makes the use of the tau ground formations in the list less flexible than elsewhere.

Seventh, and a relatively big deal - this list has far less markerlight access than in the tau list (and those that do have MLs are in relatively fragile formations, or are very limited in terms of access relative to the formation they are in).

Fewer markerlights means a higher level of focus the enemy can have on the formations which do have MLs - and once they are gone, the effectiveness of the Stingray and Air caste units decreases accordingly.


So in all that, you would see this as being the best of both worlds?





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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:34 pm 
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I'm not sure I'd count the lack of Markerlights as being a really huge downside, myself. The only things it really impacts at all are the allied Tau contengents. Mostly the Stingrays, really. Infact, it's entirely possible in this list to build a functional fighting force which has no guided missiles at all, rendering a lack of markerlights completely meaningless...

Not sure I'd say this was 'the best of everything', as it is lacking some very significant pieces of kit, though.


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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:36 pm 
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Well, markerlights are handy when getting the most out of the air caste formations, too - Barracudas and Morays, for example, can use them to boost their direct fire abilities and to make use of onboard guided missiles.

Well, not often in my experience, given how quickly my Tetras like to die...





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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:21 am 
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I'd probably use Kleistein markerlight squads in chimeras attached to grenadiers if I wanted to do marking, personally. Reasonably tough, and the grenadiers are already Scouts, so they have wide coherency and can be used to shield the marker light troops from enemy fire to some degree. Pretty reasonable armor saves on the marker light troops too, though perhaps not fantastic.


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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:15 pm 
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(Nerroth @ Dec. 05 2007,22:19)
QUOTE
E&C:

Need to go check IA3 - I thought the withdrawal of the Titan squadron precipitated a withdrawal by the hitherto-advancing Imperials, though I guess you'd be right if the AdMcch had enough time to extract the wreckage, they could do so.

Interestingly enough, though, the general withdrawal from T'ros was far more of a shambles, with plenty of armour and weaponry left behind during the extraction, although the level of order was of course rather higher among the more valuable/disciplined/mobile forces than for others.

Since forward elements of the armoured column actually reach their target (Albeit 12 hours too late), the front line pressed onwards a significant distance.

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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:56 pm 
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Kay, I?ll don?t want to attack YOU personally, but the list. so sorry if my words are too harsh, project them on the list, not on you personally.

1.) IG Arty is pretty weak. If you really think 250 pts for 3 basilisks is a good deal, you are not p?laying guard very often I suppose. This formations deal out 1 template and NEVER survive turn 2 (if they reach turn 2 at all)

2.) The best tactic I see with that list is to pack a punch of grenadiers, some even with valyries and hammer out the best of the enemy. with their 5+ save they are resistnt against all but heaviest enemy fire, even in open and their access to skimmer "artillery" (I name it because it?s the best term I found for the TAU vehicles in that list) the drawbacks of point 1.) are dimishing very fast (I would see it an advantage)

3.) Crisis are not needed as they get their own suit.

4.) TAU equipment is supposed to be weak in FF and CC. If I look at your list, I do not see this weakness.  On the other side you pack even more firepower than normal with included tank companies, stingrays and even mantas.

5.) There is a reason IG cannot use dropships to deploy their forces on the field. Your Grenadiers are able to drop with (too cheap) orcas in hostile territory, if used the right formation even a better initiative. (they never get a BM when used right with planetfall and with Battlesuit upgrade they grow insanely good in FF and CC). But hey, they even do not need to get into FF or CC , on sustaining near a formation they deal out 16 AP 4+ (8 of them with disrupt) and "0nly" 2 AP2+ with disrupt (not counted in the markerlight they already have, making all shots 3+. for only 350 pts and 100 pts for the orca. Not counting  the decend survivability with 5+ reinforced armor in the front  ;). I could generate this effect also only with markerlight squads, paying only +50 pts , reducing the cost of this formation to meager 250 pts. (with the same devastaing effect)

6.) and then we take some baneblade COMPANIES to support the battleline and I can even choose how much  of the I like to take. Against titans they will be also the Shadowsword, if other nasty things are not enough.

I don?t want to get more into detail, maye we could do this pm, but you should decide which way this list has to go:

Humans with plenty  HUMAN left over equipment and some  TAU support to defend themselves

TAU with stronger human support than usual.

Now you have best of both...and also nothing real.

And another word: Drop the human suit. I strongly disbelief that the TAU want to share their "top notch" equipment piece with some "deserted" planetary forces. (they even allowed to use the research results to invent their own suit??) Even with their philosophy of unity, TAU are not insane. They may lend them some stealth suit units, for sure, but they are piloted by Firewarriors, not by barbarian humies.

my 0,002 cent

Soren





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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:48 pm 
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Only one IG SHT formation. The rest can be made up with TAU gunships

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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:18 pm 
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I'm not sure how grenadiers in this list are -that- much better then basic ones. The only place they have seriously higher firepower is mixed units where they get 1 AP and 1 AT shot per base, instead of 1 AP OR 1 AT shot per base. The Chimera add a bunch of extra attacks to them, but they do that for Guard as well. Likewise with the Valkyries. The only reason the grenadiers are 'better' is that you can take them as a core choice, so you can build a whole army around them if you want to (As I demonstrated somewhere on one of the previous pages).

I think the lack of artillery is somewhat understated. They don't get ANY, not just no batteries. While batteries may not be that great, basilisk companies are pretty nasty against most enemies. As they can drop 9 BP barrages wherever they feel like for the first turn or two of the game until something manages to come kill them. Manticores are even worse, as they can break small to medium sized formations pretty easily in a single volley.

Now, eight grenadiers in 4 valks -will- get 20 AP 5+ attacks. But so do 8 storm troopers in valks. Similarly 8 grenadiers in 4 chimera get 16 AP 5+ shots, but 13 IG in 7 chimera get 21 AP 5+ shots and aren't particularly broken, so I'm not seeing it as being a huge issue. Grenadiers should go up in cost, but not by that much.

The Zashi are neat, but seem to be straight up better then stealth suits as near as I can tell. They loose teleport (big) and first strike (not so big), but pick up MUCH better CC and FF stats (big), and MW CC attacks (big-ish). As I read the rules (this could be wrong) you could take a Supreme Commander, add 2 Zashi, mount the whole mess in an Orca, and air-drop them into an assault for potentially 6 MW melee attacks at 4+. Not quite as good as air-dropped Terminators, but still very very nice. I'd probably use them with some Valk-mounted Grenadieres, myself. Use the valks/grenadiers to place some blastmarkers and get in support position, then use the zashi/orca to stage an air assault and let them support. Not sure how effecient it would be but seems pretty nasty to me!


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