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Sentry Turret with Marker Light
Tactica	Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:53 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (clausewitz @ 09 Dec. 2005 (13:01)) 5 independent units seems like it would use up an inordinate amount of firepower to get rid of them (ie 5 different formations activations). ?For 50 points would you ever not take this option? If I want to mark enemy artillery (or something like that) then I could use a Stealth Contingent at 175 points, but that contingent can be shot or assaulted before I get to use their markerlights. ?So instead I take the sentry towers, and there is no way for my opponent to get rid of 5 formations before I get to use the markerlights to shoot at my target. Whether they activate or not 5 formations for 50 points is wrong. ?I think the Sentry Tower must come as one formation, otherwise it seems like it will create unbalanced results. I think we should consider the ramifications of adding this to the main list very carefully before proceeding. ?Especially with the level of debate that has been centred around the markerlight balance. I think this is theoretical and other variables not being considered CW. First - how much detriment does the marker bring? AFterall, wihtout another formation to capitalize, the mark is irrelivent. Second - Unless I surround you or bunch them up, it will be easy enough to remove a given mark from a given area Third - to guarantee a formation be marked, I'll have to surround him with sentries. The enemy will assault several at once if I get them too close Fourth - they are disposable points. They cannot get me objectives or even contest. Sure, they have to have some advantage to using them or their worthless. I would be surprised if there are any left - in relivent locations - by the end of turn 1 and in many games, by the end of turn 2. I can think of many games where manouvering was the first turn with relatively little fire exchange. The demand of turn 1 placement pretty much ensures that I'll commit to defensive or offensive role with the towers. If I put them out on the offense - and do nothing to capitalize, they'll all be gone and I'll have given my opponent 50 points for free. If I put them defensively, they will work to help if the enemy closes but could also be useless. Only if I put them in a position to be used and make use of them turn 1, and use them before the enemy wipes them out - will they be of sifnificant service up front. I think they deserve playtest - for sure. However, I don't think they are by any means broken or rediculously useful. We need to prove that one way or the other though. I could be completely wrong. Whether they are a clump of units in a single formation and have ZOC... (honda playtest) (no limit on how many one can take) Or whether they are individual units that have NO ZOC - doesnt' deployed individually (somebody elses suggestion) seem to make much difference to me personally. I'd be happy to playtest either. (limit on 5 per 3K played) I do think 50 points for 5 is the appropriate price for this kind of formation as 10 points a model seems right for something that doesn't move, doesn't shoot, doesn't fight, and doesn't control or contest an objective. In the end, the value of this formation will be ZOC or not, and whether GM capable formations will capitalize off of the drone sentry's position. If you aren't taking a significant amount of GM, the drone sentry may not even fit into your battle strategy. At 50 points, you will be waying this vs. some swordfish replacements, a couple command arrays or something else possibly. On paper, this formation as described is definitely not a no brainer for me right now. Just my thoughts. _________________ Rob
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Honda

Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:51 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

Whether they are a clump of units in a single formation and have ZOC... (honda playtest) (no limit on how many one can take) This was a point that I left out of my previous post. I'd be fine with a 0 - 2 contingent limitation every 3K points. As I observed last night, one formation may get you something, it may not. However, I don't think that the limitation is really necessary at this point. So what if somebody blankets the field with Sentry's. They don't hold or contest and @ 75 pts, you could task one piddly unit to go around and kill all of them, thus guaranteeing that your opponent secures the points tie breaker. However, I'll will go back to my origial point. We (all of us) really need to play test these guys. A tease... _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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Tactica	Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:22 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	OK, A. So are we back to a single formation, with Scout and ZOC - no max amount of contingents. 5 for "75" points? Counts as contingency. (People will just have to be mindful of the potential for getting them out of coherency) Or... B. Are we thinking 3 formations of 2 for 75 points? Scout and ZOC. No minimum but counts as contingency. ( Or... C. It sounds like we are NOT thinking individual units as posted... 5 for 50 and no scout or formation coherency with limit to how many can be taken per 3K points I'm looking to update the WIP but need a decision we all can agree to start with. I think we are saying Option B above. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:23 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Honda, There's a rogue dust bunny in your photo - MARK IT! _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Tau Technology Drone Sentry Drone Sentries may come in the form of a turrent or Tower... more fluff... Drone sentries are immobile units. They may not control or contest objectives. They are purchased in 3 seperate formations of 2 units each. Each 3 formations of 2 units each count as a single contingent choice in the army. Tau Contingents Formation Type ? ? ? ?Units ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Cost Sentry Towers ? ??3 Formations of 2 Drone Sentry Towers each. ? ? ? ?75 points Notes: Markerlights, Teleport, Scout, Immobile, Drone Sentries. Tau Units 1) Data sheet would stay in collectors edition models for now. 2) Data sheet would lose the following text from notes section: Drone Sentry Towers may not control objectives or contest objectives. What do you think? _________________ Rob
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Honda	Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:17 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	The reason I suggested one formation of D3 + 3 is that as worded above, the unit is immune to the effect of Teleport. Do we really want to do that? I like that your proposal avoids the "out of coherency" issue, but again do we want to make the Sentry's immune to the Big T? _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Tactica	Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:30 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Honda, Don't know - but we have to start somehwere. My gut - untested mind you - but 'gut' feeling is that a formation which is giving up movement, shooting, assaulting, objective holding, and objective contesting is going to have relatively minimal uses. Furthermore, In the 3 formations of 2 models, it takes on the guidance from Forgeworld's untested vision. It eliminates the out of coherency issue easily enough - which I think is something we want to avoid anyway with immobile units. On the other hand, it allows you to teleport them. If you get a blast marker, bummer. If you get two blastmarkers, well - bad dice rolling and your drone sentries have encountered the dreaded imperial jam... or worse, RUST. To me, it may not be perfect, but its a pretty simple place to start. The value in these will be simply ZOC annoyance, Markers. They will in effect be a 75 point sacrificial trick. I eliminated the mandate of them having to be used on turn 1 as the more I thought about it, the less sense it made that Tau would actually turn their beacon marking devices on before they could well make use of them. As the Tau Strategy rating still blows by comparisson to some armies, they are still goign to have the challenge of going first, and even then, they are going to have to be in position to make use of these anoying buggers. Thus, in the end, I think this present proposal is the best place to start taking in all the feedback we've had on this. I've become somewhat fond of the formation as its developed and I'd like to see it make it into the main list. More from a very Tau fluffy element rather than a strategic element, but like the teleporting stealths, I think it starts giving us some of the very tau tricky tech gadgetry into the E:A scale list. That in itself is a promising element, and something I'd pay 75 points for if I could get some use out of it. Anyway, just my thoughts... Now... to figure out how to get Honda to model me up 6-12 of these things!     _________________ Rob
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clausewitz	Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:53 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland	Tactica, IF it was 5 formations of individual sentries (I realise that this isn't how its looking so far) then I do think there are some obvious uses that seem OTT. Example.  If I surround my opponents blitz objective with them two things happen.  Firstly I get to fire any GMs at units in that area, making the objective a nad place for my opponents units.  Secondly if my opponent wants to get rid of them he will require 5 activations to do so (its fairly obvious to make sure they are never close enough to be intermingled), which makes it quite likely that he won't be able to clear them all in the first turn (if he does then I would be very happy to have around half his army not shoot at me for 50 points!) Against an IG army with 2 or 3 artillery batteries it would easily be worth 50 points to mark them all at the start of the game.  Again it would take too much effort to get rid of them before the artillery has been damaged/destroyed. Against Eldar I would place them behind (from my perspective) the 5 most useful pieces of terrain to negate the pop-up hiding places. Defensively a couple of formations (in concert with the usual MLs in the army) can ensure a very complete ML coverage for you skyray AA missiles. Ok, so that said, I don't think they are a bad idea.  We just need to make sure that the number of formations isn't such that its unbalancing.  For the low cost of the unit any unit activating to destroy them will be worth significantly more, so you will nearly always be wasting firepower when getting rid of them. If they have a ZOC I would suggest one formation.  If they have no ZOC then 2 formations at 50 points or perhaps 3 for 75. Personally I would prefer the single formation with ZOC (I could imagine it would be disconcerting for the troops as they approach, as "Predator"esque laser sights lock in on them). And just a thought.. perhaps they could be Fearless since they have no actual people in them to panic.  This might ofset the reduction in resilience of the single formation option.
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Honda	Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:35 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	Tactica, I understand you logic and I'm Ok with it. I wasn't thinking that if you get two BM's your broken = Dead because they are immobile. Let's go forward from this point and start testing. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Tactica	Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:55 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (clausewitz @ 10 Dec. 2005 (00:53)) Tactica, IF it was 5 formations of individual sentries (I realise that this isn't how its looking so far) then I do think there are some obvious uses that seem OTT. Personally I would prefer the single formation with ZOC (I could imagine it would be disconcerting for the troops as they approach, as "Predator"esque laser sights lock in on them). And just a thought.. perhaps they could be Fearless since they have no actual people in them to panic. ?This might ofset the reduction in resilience of the single formation option. CW, points about individual formations well met. Understood and some valid points there. So, individual formations is scrapped. Back to 3F of 2U then... good place to start? Fearless seems logicial as just because the close down, and enemy is nearby... their's nobody inside and its immobile. Just makes sense to me - so I wouldn't have a problem with that. It would mean you'd have to shoot or engage them to make them go away. Seems logical. Thanks cw, _________________ Rob
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Tactica	Post subject: Sentry Turret with Marker Light Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:03 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (Honda @ 10 Dec. 2005 (12:35)) Tactica, I understand you logic and I'm Ok with it. I wasn't thinking that if you get two BM's your broken = Dead because they are immobile. Let's go forward from this point and start testing. Honda, broken = dead doesn't seem right for an unmanned immobile unit, so I'm OK with fearless on these as CW mentioned if others are. Afterall, it doesn't get paranoide and go to ground or panic and run. Your guys call though - just LMK what to go with on this one - otherwise, i think we have a next revision unit. Cheers, _________________ Rob
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