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Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Steele

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:54 pm

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Quote (dptdexys @ 16 May 2006 (18:35))

Quote (Ilushia @ 15 May 2006 (21:48))

... Making them Init 1 seems it'd help with this, but I'd suspect that the enemy could still break the 6 DC Manta quite easily, especially IG with their barrages, so I have a suggestion which doesn't require a massive rules change. Make Support Craft unattackable by BP weapons.

This is not a major point but isn't the Manta 8 DC not6 DC.

Last time I looked it was 8 DC.

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Steele

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dptdexys

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:10 pm

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With the orca now capable of carrying kroot wouldn't it be worth trying allowing the Manta to also transport them.

I don't think this would be a boost at all but it would give the option of using bigger formations of kroot without having to footslog them across the table.

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N0-1_H3r3

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:02 pm

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Quote (Moscovian @ 16 May 2006 (15:26))

And to bring the realism thing back into it... The Manta transports lots and lots of infantry. Exactly how are they getting from the Manta to the surface? Parachutes?!

You aren't required to bring any skimmers to shuttle them to the ground.

Parachutes... no. Gravchutes, most certainly.

The Imperial Guard make use of Gravchutes, and the Tau possess a far better grasp of anti-grav technology, so limited use jetpacks or lightweight gravchutes (for descending from the hold of a Manta) would be entirely within reason.

Certainly, there's a black and white picture in the old Tau Codex that shows several battlesuits and an Ethereal performing an air-drop...

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Xisor

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:11 pm

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Some points:

- I wouldn't say it's the Warp Drive that gives it the capacity to Planetfall independently, it's that it is essentially a system ship, capable of traversing solar systems along with the best of Starships[From Tau Kass' to Planetkillers]. Thunderhawks and Vampires are still very much the TIE Fighters of the game: They can't go too far from their command ship. Mantas OTOH *can*.

- Again, nothing else in the scope of the 40k Universe fits into the same league as the Manta. The next size up is the Orca & Warden Class Escorts of the Tau's Kor'vattra, then the Iconoclast and Cobra class destroyers of the Imperial and Chaos fleets. Going down from a Manta we approach those old massive Imperial Guard Dropships[forget the name], it takes a few more drops in size before you reach SM or Ork Lander or Vampire Raider.

- I'm not sure about kroot in the Manta. It's passable seeing Fire Warriors drop out with a 'one use' Grav Chute or something, or even a 'mini-jetpack'[Tau are highly proficient with Jets *and* Grav Tech], but when I think Kroot all I see is "Wheee..YARGH! "[though sliding down some ropes is a cool idea IMO]. Actually, in hindsight, I wouldn't mind, but it does make sense[IMO] for the Orca. The Manta is a different kettle of kroot.

A question:

How crucial do you find the Support Craft rules to the success, viability or plausibility of the Manta and Moray?

For the Manta & Moray, a simple note in it's Stat-Card of 'Ignores effects of all terrain on it's movement' would pretty much cater for the 'height flyey' benefits they get, with everything else returning to normal...except they'd be vulnerable to CC...hmmm....

Xisor

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Ilushia

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:22 pm

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If you made the Manta a normal skimmer that'd let it fly over terrain. If you went with that along with a 'Never hindered (or helped) by terrain' bit, it'd probably work OK. As a Skimmer you could do pop-up attacks... I'd be worried about how powerful it would be compared to what the enemy could do to it though. With two 90cm MW 2+ shots which are TK you can mess stuff up from a LONG way away (From mid-board you could potentially fire at nearly anything), and without the 'always seen' rule it would be extremely difficult for the enemy to stop you. Likewise as a Skimmer it would be able to ignore LoS basically on it's own... So unlike an Imperial titan you couldn't hide behind a piece of terrain to avoid being shot at.

And it'd still be 'immune' to melee, since it can always choose to fly high and avoid close-combat in favor of fire-fight.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:20 pm

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Do you really think this thing can hide all that well? (Real question, I am curious if anyone sees this thing as able to hide effectively). It measures about 5 inches across and 4 inches long. That's big in an Epic scale.

I just don't see this thing ducking behind a row of trees. :laugh:

It may benefit occasionally from a -1 modifier, but maybe that small change is what the doctor ordered.

Heck, you may not need to change its initiative. I could be wrong, but I'd like to know what others think about just ridding it of the Support Craft rule.

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baronpiero

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:34 pm

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well,

support craft is cool imagery.

From a game perspective, the Manta would be just too powerful if accessing the sneaky skimmer tactics.

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:21 pm

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Quote (clausewitz @ 16 May 2006 (15:06))

So, I believe that the Manta must therefore be close enough to the ground that it can shoot secondary weapons under and around it (and therefore can be shot in return) and close enough that it does exert an influence on the surrounding terrain (ZOC). ?And I would conclude that it can't therefore be much more than a few hundred metres in altitude. ?

CW you've won me over. I'll defer to you on this one.

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Gotchaye

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 3:00 am

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What if we say that Support Craft are skimmers which can't pop up and can't enter terrain, instead hovering over terrain pieces (and thus not being able to claim cover bonuses for terrain immediately under them)? Things can't shoot at them from all over the board, but they also can't ignore terrain when shooting. It's no more complicated than the current rule, I don't think.

I think the change does tend to make them stronger - would we be able to leave it at 850 points and with no other changes? Of course, Morays would have to be looked at again if we adopt a significantly different Support Craft rule.

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Tactica

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:34 am

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Hey all,

Good discussion.

CS,

For my vote - I'm in agreement on "no more special rules if not needed."

Principly, I think the Manta works as a unit - with the +1 init bump.

The points do not currently reflect its value.

I'm not in favor of the 'warp drive' or whatever rule to give the Manta a special mode of 'ship-less' planetfall. The primary reason is that several ships in E:A are capable of 'above atmosphere' flight. Thunderhawks fight in BFG just like Mantas do. Violating that established 'space craft' requirement for deployment via planetfall seems like a bad path to travel.

Its also an unnecessary special rule to justify the points.

800 points and +1 init is enough change IMHO for the next version and testing.

Baby steps.

cheers,

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:51 am

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You could just fudge it and lose the support craft rule for instead being a skimmer (immune from CC then). Bit of a shame but would make things simpler.

The manta though would probably have to take a weapons reduction or a points upgrade then as its more heavily armed and armoured (now I understand the deflector dish rule

) than its contemporaries.

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Tactica

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:57 am

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Eliminating the SCraft rule and then causing a complicated analysis of weapons reduction to points is no where in the ball park of 'tweaking and tuning' a unit that fundamentally works with an init tweak and points tweak.

As JJ has already seen the SCraft rule more than once, and appearently is on board, doesn't seem like we need to do that, nor do the current issues warrant such a change.

See above... signing off.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:15 am

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I remain wary of a points reduction because it simply has so much firepower. The lower it goes and the fact it can always see you means the more you have to kill it.

Saying that I still reckon the AA missiles should be replaced with Tracers.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:59 am

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Guys, there are a lot of good ideas here, and I will need to go through this thread again to pick them all out. Just to give a brief 'coming soon'...

I agree that the Tau list is currently pushing the limit of the number of special rules which are able to be attached to it. I am very wary of creating more unless they are really required. That said, I do think that the concept of a Manta Planetfall without space craft is a very good one, and in my mind would go a long way to addressing some issues with the unit (I wonder how many people would take a Warlord titan if it required a space craft as a package). Principly, while the Manta is clearly worth the region of 850 points, I do think that forcing a space craft as well puts pressure on the Tau player which is unwarranted and forces a 'particular' style of game play - particularly when the background for this craft explicitly states that it is able to make space flight missions. If this is brough in, with the Initiative 1+ suggestion (which no-one seems to dispute) then it will run at 850 points as normal - in the standard philosophy of not wanting to make changes to both stats/abilities and points in the same epoch. However, even saying this, I am very tempted to not change the Planetfall ability at this time and load it for a later development if it is felt that it is required.

I am against giving the Manta either the teleport ability or making it a skimmer at this time.

I agree that the Manta does not require extensive changes, and I am also aware that this unit is one of the most difficult to balance correctly, so I am treading carefully and not wanting to make any sweeping changes at this time.

The weapon load-out of the unit is something that I will examine. One the one hand, I will go back to the 40K stats (since I now have the Taros book - harray!) but on the other there is no point having a weapon load which is ineffective just because that is what it uses in 40K. Again here, I do not think that large changes are required, and if anything changes for the weapons then it will be a 'missile reallocation' or some such minor alteration... but even this I will need to examine.

Damn... now I will need to order one of these behemoths! :devil:

I can tell my wife that you guys told me too... right?

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clausewitz

Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:30 am

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Damn... now I will need to order one of these behemoths! I can tell my wife that you guys told me too... right?

Absolutely, we will all sign the petition

I am in agreement with your summary, and I am glad its not going to be a skimmer!

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