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Everything Markerlights

Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:42 pm

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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In 40k, the only time multiple MLs are useful is for pounding Tyranid Monstrous Creatures. Since it takes one markerlight to guide each Seeker Missile, in order to kill one 'fex, it takes 12 MLs to be able to guide in the 6 seekers that you need.

Also, GW is drastically changing the Markerlight system in Codex Tau Empire (due in March). This conversation may need to wait a bit, if we want to keep the ML mechanic similar in both systems.

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Soulless1

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:49 pm

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Location: Leicester, UK (termtime). South Essex, UK (holidays).

well you have to remember we're talking about marking whole formations of targets here, so with more markerlights you can both mark more targets AND call in more seekers (one markerlight per seeker remember), which means the more markerlights you have, the better.

Personally I'm in favour of making it that seekers directed by pathfinder units (and only pathfinders) give +1 to hit. I also happen to be in favour getting rid of the unguided firing, I see no reason (especially for fluff) why that was put in in the first place.

Just make it:

Modified Current Rules
-A unit may fire its guided missiles at any target within range (no LOS required) if the target formation is also within 30cm and LOS of a markerlight-equipped unit (the unit must not have marched or be broken).
-Only those target models/stands within range and line of sight of a marking formation may be struck by seeker missiles.
-If the marking formation is pathfinders, the missiles get +1 to hit.

or

my updated suggestion
-A unit with markerlights that carries out a shooting attack on an enemy formation within 30cm and LOS, may nominate any friendly GM-carrying formation within 75cm (no LOS required) of the targets that is not marching/broken and has not fired GM already that turn. Any GMs carried by the nominated formation will immediately fire at the markerlit targets, with the shots counting as being part of the markerlighting formation's shooting attacks in all respects (this does not use the launching formation's activation for the turn). Add +1 to hit to GM attacks on targets being marked by pathfinders.

My suggested rule is a little bit longer to write out (cos you have to make sure that people know which formations are being activated and who needs LOS) but in play the game mechanics are just as simple and (IMHO) make far more sense. They also distinguish guided missiles from simply being a vehicle-mounted AT weapon and make them the infantry fire support weapon that they are designed to be. :8):

As far as 'bookkeeping' goes, TBH I don't think remembering to only fire one GM shot from a unit per turn can really be described as 'bookkeeping'. Its not difficult to remember if a unit has activated during a turn, so why should it be hard to remember if it has fired seekers - Especially as not all units carry GMs.
Like I said, you could use a marker if you really wanted to, but I don't know why that would be required outside of really big games (when you might need counters for lots of things anyway).

Still, whichever version of the rules is used, getting rid of unguided firing makes things simpler as well and more in line with fluff, and adding +1 to hit for pathfinder (not tetra) formations is no problem at all. :8):

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Nerroth

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:45 pm

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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm
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Location: Canada

Why do you disagree with Tetras also recieving the +1 to target?

I see it as the first vehicle in the Tau forces to be specifically designed to act as a mobile ML platform, with integrated illumination systems (I think they are meant to be in that funny dome thingy on the top of the piece above the Pathfinders' heads) and they are crewed by specially-trained Pathfinders - the only vehicle in the list so crewed.

I believe that it should also recieve the +1 to hit, along with footslogging Pathfinders.

And I disagree with removing the ability to fire any guided munitions from the list, vehicles like Stingrays would at least have the capacity to launch against LOS enemy formations - of course, launching guided submunitions missiles from behind a hill against a target formation is a more useful means of getting the best out of the tank!

Gary

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Steele

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:19 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am
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Location: Duisburg , Germany

It seems that all revolves around how ML are used in 40k? Right? As far as I see it, in 40k you have not that many models to play with as in Epic - in fact it is said that a 40k match is a single assault in Epic. So it is designed around a certain number of models you take into battle. I see Epic as the real large scale War battles fought in a ( possibly) global Conflict, so why it shouldn?t be possible that in such large scale operations units that have access to ML are equipped with them to saturate possible targets? Why should a FW Cadre only take 1 ML in a group of 40 to 60 grunts if they know that there a Armoured Cadres or Contingents relying on them to fire their missiles? Pathfinders should have them, but just because they are the lone wolves spearheading the army the should not be the only ones gaining a bonus. In fact IMHO they shouldn?t have it at all ( the bonus). We made the formation size to big (IMO) to act as concealed PATHFINDING/ Scouting formations. But I learned to play with them at this size....

My two Yen

Steele

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Tactica

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:32 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 08 Dec. 2005 (17:47))

Quote (Tactica @ 07 Dec. 2005 (21:04))

I can already hear it... why does a FW unit with 1 marker light just as effective at marking in E:A as an 8 man Pathfinders with 8 marker lights?

Perhaps our answer is - It only takes one marker light to cover the area - so the other 7 are just redundant and unnecessary.

I am just passing through, but I wanted to state that, for me, a target is either marked or not. There doesnt seem to be an advantage to marking a target more than once - to the extent that I had not even thought about this train of discussion.
:o0

CS,

Thanks for wieghing in.

In 40K, a target is marked for 1 missle or 1 gun per successful mark. In 40K, marking is not automatic, but painting is just as firing a gun. So a single warrior in a unit with a markerlight might hit and may not afford a unit any value. However, a unit of markerlights assures a hit and thus multiple markerlights also bring in multiple weapons to the target.

So for the record, there's a huge difference in what 1 unit with 1 marker can do compared to what 1 unit with 8 marker lights can do - in 40K terms anyway.

However, I've said it before, the Epic:A Tau WIP list is working fine from my perspective (and once the kinks are worked out of v4.3.1 - it should be in the same status IMHO). Therefore, I think we are pretty close to balanced, flexible, and effective. These are all good things. The current marker light units and rules are working with the GM rules. So no complaints at all from me regarding balance, flexability, and mechanics for me overall.

That said, I will maintain that the markerlight mechanics are very abstract for this 40K player, but if you guys are happy defending our current stance and system - I'm right there with you. I just want us to acknowledge the abstraction and fully embrace it for the right reasons.

In short, I just want to make sure all of our cards are on the table. I can see this issue coming up more than once and if we are not 100% clear on why firewarriors (and the alike) are just as effective at marking as pathfinders (and the alike), then I see no harm and no foul.

...and that leads me to if FW and stealth have em, I still don't see why Human Aux don't have markerlights.

If the answer is - they/we don't want them to have them... well OK, but - but my human aux have just put in their requisition chit and are pleading for markers. They heard taht the boys on Taros get to use all kinds of cool gadetry of the Tau and are petitioning the same respect.

Cheers,

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RedDevil

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:38 pm

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Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:58 pm
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Jaldon: Love your Avatar!

Tacitca: lol! I agree, Gue'vesa need Marker Beams of Death loving too!

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:45 pm

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

Quote (Nerroth @ 08 Dec. 2005 (19:45))

And I disagree with removing the ability to fire any guided munitions from the list, vehicles like Stingrays would at least have the capacity to launch against LOS enemy formations - of course, launching guided submunitions missiles from behind a hill against a target formation is a more useful means of getting the best out of the tank!

If we go to this proposal, Stingrays should better get their markerlights back! Otherwise, teleporting troops are going to eat them alive for the crime of showing their heads on the table.

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Tactica

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:32 am

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

As there is a good amount of debate regarding what the heck should happen with markers - that's healthy.

On the other hand, we seem to agree that ML and GM area also working in the list as designed.

Perhaps the best Modus Operandi at this time is to sit back and chill... let v4.3.2 come out. Lets get it into the vault.

Then lets reconvieve on this topic if needed after the world's had plenty of time to chew on it in playtest.

I think we need to focus on getting a revision out to the masses sooner rather than later.

We are way, way, way... overdue for a revision to the v4.1 thats in the vault.

What do you say lads... can we all just leave the markers where they are and as they are - and get the list out the door for now?

Think of the greater good.

Cheers, :alien:

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:48 am

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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Yes. Leave the system as it is, right now, to expedite getting 4.3.x out.

Could we set a rough update schedule of, say, once every 3-4 weeks, vice every couple days like we had for v4.2.5+? It seems we've pretty much got the major bugs worked out of the system, and the finer you tweak something, the more analysis you need to confirm the changes.

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Nerroth

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:56 am

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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm
Posts: 573
Location: Canada

Or, it could be said, the more fluff and RL reasoning you need to argue over points of debate in the list!

I can't wait to see the next Vaulted list, I want to get cracking on v7 of the Grenadiers...

(And I'll answer over at the Leaders thread later, sleep-time beckons!)

Gary

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:58 am

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

Yeah, got a bit of admin out of the boss here that I need to knock out before I go home, myself.

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Tactica

Post subject: Everything Markerlights

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:18 am

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
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Quote (Lion in the Stars @ 08 Dec. 2005 (23:48))

Yes. ?Leave the system as it is, right now, to expedite getting 4.3.x out. ?

Could we set a rough update schedule of, say, once every 3-4 weeks, vice every couple days like we had for v4.2.5+? ?It seems we've pretty much got the major bugs worked out of the system, and the finer you tweak something, the more analysis you need to confirm the changes.

Agreed, we apprear to be in pretty good shape on the Tau WIP front, but v4.3.1 has not yet seen revision. I know CS is working on it so, we'll see.

I have a v4.2.9 WIP list about ready, but was hoping to see CS's v4.3.2 rev as it may have all the necessary changes to v4.3.1 already... soo...

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