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Comments on v5.0
Steve54
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:16 am 
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Quote: (Jackwraith @ 20 Feb. 2009, 18:54 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 20 Feb. 2009, 16:38 )

Quote: (nealhunt @ 20 Feb. 2009, 16:33 )

Not that I favor the approach, but if you wanted the Tau tanks to be able to avoid terrain checks but not pop up or force FF, Jump Packs would be the answer.

Shockingly brilliant in its simplicity, Neal!

Are Tau tanks considered "fast" in 40k?

No.

Also, while I like Neal's idea if it solves problems, in re: Moscovian's batrep, I don't see how Marines, in particular, are that badly affected by the skimmer rule when it comes to assaults. Only 3 units in the list (Assault Marines, Scouts, Bikes) are directly affected, with lower FF values than CC, and a couple are even enhanced by it (not that anyone assaults that often with Devastators...) Terminators and Tac Squads are utterly unaffected.

Now, Orks are another story entirely, so there's certainly an argument to be made that an all skimmer tank list would be difficult for Ork armies (happy to let the Ork expert, Neal, chime in here) but you're still talking about formations that are so small as to still be adversely affected by suppression and breaking like all other Tau formations.

How are terminators unaffected by having to FF? I'd say losing their MW was reasonably significant

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vytzka
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:35 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 20 Feb. 2009, 18:38 )

Are Tau tanks considered "fast" in 40k?

With certain upgrade, they're kinda "in the middle". They still move as normal tanks but fire as if they were Fast. That allows them to retain a lot more firepower on the move (normal tanks can drive up to 12" per turn but can't fire if they move more than 6", Hammerhead with this upgrade can move up to 12" and still fire the main gun).
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stompzilla
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:30 am 
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Eldar lists are easily made all skimmer and have as many if not more options.  Are they considered unbalanced?
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:49 am 
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Remove the AMHC
Remove either the Stingray or Scorpionfish
Remove the SC option form the Scorpionfish
Fewer upgrade options for formations


This are some really good suggestions.

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Onyx
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 21 Feb. 2009, 17:49 )

Remove the AMHC
Remove either the Stingray or Scorpionfish
Remove the SC option form the Scorpionfish
Fewer upgrade options for formations


This are some really good suggestions.

I don't fully agree.

Remove the AMHC - No.
Remove either the Stingray or Scorpionfish - No.
Remove the SC option form the Scorpionfish - Yes.
Fewer upgrade options for formations - Yes.

Just my views (for what they're worth).
Steve.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Is anyone actually in favour of the SC option remaining on the Scorpionfish?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:06 pm 
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Quote: (stompzilla @ 21 Feb. 2009, 09:30 )

Eldar lists are easily made all skimmer and have as many if not more options.  Are they considered unbalanced?

Eldar can't take an "All Armoured Vehicles" skimming army... they have to stuff squishy infantry into some of their skimmers to do so; a vulnerability to AP fire if dismounted and to massive Blast markers if mounted.  Additionally, all the Eldar tanks have 5+ armour.

The current Tau list allows for a skimmer army that is all armoured vehicles... negating close combat *and* any AP weapons... and most with 4+ armour.

That's why it's seen as unbalanced.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:46 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 21 Feb. 2009, 11:33 )

Is anyone actually in favour of the SC option remaining on the Scorpionfish?

The Powergamer side of me is. :blush:

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Chroma
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:53 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 21 Feb. 2009, 12:50 )

Has anyone actually tried this army in game and compare it to Eldar variant (eg. Shining Spears + AVs)? Mephiston has one list which has lots of LVs.

LVs bring their balancing vulnerability with them...  *laugh*

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vytzka
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:00 pm 
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That wouldn't be immune to AP fire.
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zombocom
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:29 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 21 Feb. 2009, 14:21 )

The comment about all AV is moot as so many others can do that as well. The all skimmer is interesting, but unless demonstrated to be problem (batrep and game testing people) I don't believe it it to be. 4+ save isn't that good, so I don't accept that to be the main problem as well. I mean people complain that Marine AVs are not good as they have bad save.

Ah, but marine vehicles aren't skimmers which can hide behind terrain and pop up etc etc etc....

It's not being all AVs that makes the army overpowered. Being all skimmers doesn't make an army overpowered either, and nor does having decent saves. People keep writing these off by saying "X army can do all [BLANK], and that's fine.". For each individual item above, that is true.

However, mix these three together and you get a horrible case of Paper/Scissors/Stone. Sure, other armies can do each of these things individually, but no other army can do all of them, and with good reason.

An army consisting of nothing but AV skimmers with long ranged shooting and decent saves is entirely without precident.




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Honda
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:44 pm 
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A couple of comments again to keep pace.

An army consisting of nothing but AV skimmers with long ranged shooting and decent saves is entirely without precident


This statement infers that a list "without precedent" is wrong. I strongly disagree. This list by definition is without precedent. Anything else would be a waste of effort.

I also want to say that the efforts to simplify the list are not falling on deaf ears. What CS and I considered (still ruminating over in some instances) is the balance between a list that is a challenge to play, does not cause an imbalance to the community of lists (tournament consideration), and is flavorful enough that it keeps Tau players coming back for more (vs. too focused), without causing them to be shunned by the community (can you say BFG Necrons).

That is not a simple thing to do as we feel very strongly that there is a middle ground between all those positions, it's just a matter of getting us all there.

My personal opinion is that there are still a few things to work out, but that first and foremost, CS and I are a team. I will not sacrifice that relationship for expediency. I also did not expect us to get to the sweet spot in one go. I know that there is a huge desire to make great leaps given our little hiatus, but I will be recommending measured steps that take us to periods of observation so that at the end of this exercise, we like where we are.

Anyway, this discussion is a very valuable exercise from my perspective. However, I will still insist that playtest rule the day.

Cheers,

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