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Tigershark
HecklerMD	Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:09 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201	Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 29 Dec. 2005 (09:40)) Once the next iteration of the list comes out I'll try them again against a random army (ie I won't tell Micheal what army I'm bringing) and see how well they do this time. Next game, limit yourself to two and see if your opponent worries nearly as much. In other words, I would encourage you to attempt to establish the same point (A-X-10 are unbalanced) under more normal circumstances.  You have shown that taking large quantities of these units is problematic, but that fails to address the assertation that the unit itself is unbalanced.  You have also essentially said that the number of A-X-10s you took was unusual, unusually high, in order to prove a point.  Can you prove that same point with a more normal number of A-X-10s?  I'll be playing using 2 next week, I'd like to compare results and impressions. 5 TS as it stands do (against a marked target) - 875 points 5BM for starters (to say Russ - 900 points at 13 strong plus Hydra) 6 2/3 TK hits 1 2/3 MW hits (5/6 of a kill on a RA target) 1 2/3 AT hits (5/12 kills on a RA target) Roughly 8 kills on a RA target (more slightly on non RA, about 9) n a 14 strong LR formation that leaves you with about 3-4 tanks after one pass by the planes. Since I dont know the formulae you used to get these figures, could you re-run them using only 2 A-X-10s, please?   Quote (Honda @ 30 Dec. 2005 (5:18)) "If" we were creating list that was supposed to exactly model Tau forces on Taros, I would agree. However, I don't think that is our intent, or at least my expectation. If you could share with us another notable Tau force that is known for using the otherwise prototype A-X-10s in large quantites, please, be my guest.  Nobody seemed to have a problem with using the Taros Armored Mobile Hunter Cadres as a model to base our AMHC cadre choices on. Perhaps if we dropped the Heavy Interceptor Missile and replaced it with a Aircraft Seeker, leaving the A-X-10 with only 1 15cm AA6+ shot for self defense, it become more "stoppable," more vulnerable to CAP/interception while not changing much else.

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baronpiero

Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:43 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm Posts: 186

HecklerMakie it a 0-1 formation of 2, and you will never see that in a tourney-legal list. ?A player can take 2 un-nerfed A-X-10s and all the standard TSs they want. If you put a limitation, you don't adress the real problem. Your 2 Whitesharks will still be extremely cost effective and you are likely to see most Tau armies run 2 of them. How I see it, their cost-effectiveness is the heart of the problem. If it's too low, flyers will hardly ever be taken. Too high, then it will be tempting to max-out on AX10 and use them as a main battleforce, thus denying their actual battlefield role in Epic. Therefore you have to maintain a reasonable cost effectiveness, so that fliers are used as a support asset, for their high speed and their ability to strike anywhere mainly. I believe that Jimmygrill's version was not far from a good cost-effectiveness. Just up the firepower value to 2+ to give a slight bump and adequately represent a TL railgun and we're done IMO.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:25 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London

Quote (HecklerMD @ 31 Dec. 2005 (12:09)) Next game, limit yourself to two and see if your opponent worries nearly as much. Ahh, this hits the problem I haven't got a clue what I'm doing with Tau, but I do know how to use aircrat and light tanks. If you look at the list I used and look at some of my other bat reps (maybe on the old SG site) you'll see supporting the aircraft are no 'tricks' or similar, just what I know, scouts, light tanks, etc. The only wierd thing was the crisis and I've had them used devestatingly against me in the past so I have a better idea of using them. I would love to try the whole co-ordinated fire more as it looks like something I'd love. Just no point when I can rain death from the skies I can try however I reckon next game might be straight published forces or maybe me trying out some ttan legion stuff. Or, hey, i may descend into the mire that is Chaos Since I dont know the formulae you used to get these figures, could you re-run them using only 2 A-X-10s, please? ?

Its just the chance of hitting, agains the chance of saving against the number of weapon systems.
So 2 planes firing are
(2x railcannon 3+, x2 planes) 2 2/3 TK hits
(Marked missiles 5+/6+, x2 planes) 2/3 MW hit / 1/3 MW hit
(AT missile 5+, x2 planes) 2/3 AT hit
Against an RA target thats about 3 kills, so 4-5 blast markers depending on whether or not you are a pair.

Note of course they aren't as effective if the enemy lacks juicy targets like Leman Russ. Also remember that you hit the closest unit first so ensure that the closest one in the formation is one you wish to kill.

Perhaps if we dropped the Heavy Interceptor Missile and replaced it with a Aircraft Seeker, leaving the A-X-10 with only 1 15cm AA6+ shot for self defense, it become more "stoppable," more vulnerable to CAP/interception while not changing much else.

Doubt it, only the Eldar have decent interceptors. The orks can do it, but they have to close to within 15cm so its expensive in fighters unless they are using 6+ strong squadrons (which if you are running with a lot of flak ar vulnerbale too being only 6+ saves), pair of thunderbolts just get 2 5+ shots. You have 2 damage points and a plenthora of 60-75cm ranged flak to cover yourself with.