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Everything Markerlights

 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:36 pm 
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HecklerMD:  You missunderstode that quote.  I was not saying if you disagree with me, you are on drugs like you seam to be alluding, I was saying that if you think you are getting a Damage buff over the current system then you would be incorrect.  This was simply a response to those who seamed to think that this would make the Tau much more powerful, when in fact it would actually reduce seeker effectivness, while allowing for more room in increase the other GM's population.

Disagreement breeds more debate, which leads to more ideas, which leads hopefully to a more improved system.  Feel free to disagree all you want.  Your point being that you like how the markerligtht and GM's are linked is valid.  In the proposed system, the other GM's are still linked in this unique mannor.  You might still argue that removing the Seeker from GM's is tantamount to scrapping this feel because the other GM's are so rare, and in the present circumstance I would agree with you, but that is only because Seeker's are on everything, and Tracer/Hunters are under untilized, something that should be changed anyways.

Also, I agree clausewitz.  Sustained fire covers all the circumstances where you are maximizing your damage.  All the other types of fire, are firing on the move.  Though this does make the current system with GM's a little bizzare, as it makes the firing tank seam to be aiming the missile better???  When it actually should be the infantry unit, holding the markerlight on target better.  Yet another reason to make Seekers launched by the infantry  :p






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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:48 pm 
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Quote (RedDevil @ 04 Dec. 2005 (18:36))
Also, I agree clausewitz. ?Sustained fire covers all the circumstances where you are maximizing your damage. ?All the other types of fire, are firing on the move. ?Though this does make the current system with GM's a little bizzare, as it makes the firing tank seam to be aiming the missile better??? ?When it actually should be the infantry unit, holding the markerlight on target better. ?Yet another reason to make Seekers launched by the infantry ?:p

In addition to "firing carefully", Sustained Fire represents firing a lot of shots. When a vehicle is not maneuvering, it can fire more missiles than when it's on the move. For this reason, it's quite reasonable for vehicle-fired GMs to get the +1 bonus.


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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:36 pm 
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Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.
I've been pretty much staying out of this debate and just 'reading' it instead, however...........

I really don't see the point of making any change in the way GM/MLs work.
(1) Low AT: I dunno, never have had a problem hurling AT fire all over the battlefield, and I do field two to three Fire Warrior Cadres in my army.
(2) Sustained Fire: Represents, not exclusively, a formation taking careful aim, but also an increase in firepower because of a lack of movement. Now this increase in firepower can also result in an increase in accuracy as each shot missed allows for the correction of the next shot.
(3) The present system not only makes the Tau unique, but has been worked out over a very long period of time. A 'combined' abstract system was tried, not only didn't it work well, it didn't feel right, so it was dumped.
(4) Disagreement does breed more debate, but it is only useful if it is based upon some type of logic, both in the game and from the background, so it isn't an absolute.

I now return and follow Ord............

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:46 pm 
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Quote (Jaldon @ 04 Dec. 2005 (19:36))
I now return and follow Ord............

Actually, Jaldon, my name is spelt with an 'e' at the end.  However, this would explain why I've had a funny feeling like I've been being watched lately... :D

Orde

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:08 am 
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Quote (clausewitz @ 04 Dec. 2005 (10:11))
Heckler, I don't think we need to worry about that, as even Single Shot weapons get the +1 for sustained fire.  DSM on sustained fire can't be lobbing dozens of extra missiles :p

Right, but DSM on SF dont get the +1 to hit anyway, nor would Vultures with the Hellstrikes.  MW2+/AT2+ on SF still fail on a roll of 1 before modification.

1.9.5:
However a roll of 1 before modification is always counted as a miss.


Now there are other one-shot weps that what you say applies too, I'm sure, and SF still helps DSMs and Hellstrikes shooting at targets in cover, so, hmm.

Obvous answer is SF means different things to different units and I'll stop this derail right here!  :p


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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:15 am 
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Wow, get kidnapped for you birthday and all kinds of stuff happen while you are gone.

Log me in for the group that is happy with how things currently work. Personally, I haven't seen the ML/GM a dominating feature of our list, merely another component that when used with other features produces an effective result.

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:10 am 
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asaura:  Indeed as HecklerMD states, SF means different things to different weapons firing.  Your example is incorrect though, as the Tank never fires the Seekers, they are automatically called by the infantry with the markerlight.  The tank could be doing backflips, or not even have crew in it, and the Seekers would launch as needed anyways.  This is how the fluff specifically states how "Seekers" are fired.  The new Epic GM's however could be easily fired by the tank, and just get a bonus to hit with marked targets, as the Epic community has wrriten the fluff for the new Epic GM's.  In this case your example would be justified for the Hunter's and Tracer's.

Since the majority have responded that they think this change is not welcome (though not everyone thankfully), I will simply leave the original proposal as it is, and move to my secondary backup proposal.


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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:18 am 
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Quote (Honda @ 04 Dec. 2005 (17:15))
Wow, get kidnapped for you birthday and all kinds of stuff happen while you are gone.

Not very subtle hint dropping there  :p

Happy BDay!


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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:36 am 
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New Seeker/Marker Light mechanic proposal.  (Dodge's tomates, lettuce, peanuts shells under a hiss of "boos!")

Once again this is only in regards to the "Seeker", and all other GM's would remain unaffected.

Since:
1)  It has been made clear that the Seekers must be tied to a vehicle that has them listed on it's stats sheet, and it has been made clear that it must be coordinated to a Markerlight;
2)  I feel that the current system is extremely unfluffy in accordance to how the Seeker is both described in the Codex: Tau, and how it opperates in Warhammer 40,000; specifically in the Epic list:
a.  The vehicle is firing the seeker, not the Markerlight;
b.  The vehicle can fire the Seeker with out a Markerlight via "Unguided fire";
c.  The vehicle going on sustained fire increases the chance that the missile will hit the target, when the Seeker's chance to hit has nothing to do with the vehicle carrying the Seeker;
d.  And conversly, a markerlight unit sustain firing, or more accurately marking, has no affect on the chance of the Seeker scoring a hit.

I propose the following ammendment to the "Seeker" mechanic alone.

Basic:
1) Drop unguided fire from Seekers only;
2) Vehicles lose the ability to fire Seekers, but still carry them on their stats (probably under the "Notes" section)
3) Markerlight units may fire AT6+ 30cm shots, if they have a markerlight listed on the stats, AND;
4) If they are within 75cm of a Seeker carrying vehicle.
5) Uses the IG Autocannon rules to determine how many AT shots.
6) Sustained Fire increases the shot to AT5+ at 30cm.

Advanced (optional):
6) Pathfinders, dedicated Marker Light units, get one AT shot per stand rather than 1/2 per the IG Autocannon rules.


This preserves the Seeker Markerlight "co-ordination" unique feel that was the largest stumbling block of the first proposal.  This removes the abstraction of Seekers, that was the second largest stumbling block to the first proposal.  This places the firing of the Seeker back to the Markerlight unit (more fluffy).  This stops the Devilfish from being able to rain fire from 75cm away unless it's target is marked, same is applied to Piranhas (unfluffy/unfluffy).  If you run out of Markerlights, you can't shoot Seekers; other GM's unaffected as they can still fire "Unguided".  This makes sustaining with the Markerlight increase the likelyhood of scoring a Seeker hit (follows fluff, max AT5+), while removing the bonus if the vehicle carrying the Seeker sustain fires (breaks fluff).  This removes unguided fire from Seekers (radically breaks fluff), while still allowing other GM's to use the current "unguided fire" option (SF+ML=MW4+ for Tracer).

Anyone like this compromise?






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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:33 pm 
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To be honest, while I welcome debate of this kind, I simply dont see a real need to change from the system that we currently have. It is the most elegant to my mind, and I am not convinced that it is out of character (any more than having FW squads carrying AT weapons is, anyway).

The current mechanic seems to work well, and have the desired effects. I welcome the opinions of others here on this.

(PS: Happy birthday, Honda!)

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:45 pm 
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Quote (Honda @ 05 Dec. 2005 (01:15))
Wow, get kidnapped for you birthday and all kinds of stuff happen while you are gone.

Log me in for the group that is happy with how things currently work. Personally, I haven't seen the ML/GM a dominating feature of our list, merely another component that when used with other features produces an effective result.

Ha, happy aging day Honda!

:laugh:


Tactica nods to CS





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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:47 pm 
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Quote (HecklerMD @ 05 Dec. 2005 (00:08))
Quote (clausewitz @ 04 Dec. 2005 (10:11))
Heckler, I don't think we need to worry about that, as even Single Shot weapons get the +1 for sustained fire.  DSM on sustained fire can't be lobbing dozens of extra missiles :p

Right, but DSM on SF dont get the +1 to hit anyway, nor would Vultures with the Hellstrikes.  MW2+/AT2+ on SF still fail on a roll of 1 before modification.

You know that targets do occasionally use cover, right?  :;):  That makes the +1 quite useful to offset the cover mod.

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:29 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 05 Dec. 2005 (08:47))
Quote (HecklerMD @ 05 Dec. 2005 (00:08))
Quote (clausewitz @ 04 Dec. 2005 (10:11))
Heckler, I don't think we need to worry about that, as even Single Shot weapons get the +1 for sustained fire.  DSM on sustained fire can't be lobbing dozens of extra missiles :p

Right, but DSM on SF dont get the +1 to hit anyway, nor would Vultures with the Hellstrikes.  MW2+/AT2+ on SF still fail on a roll of 1 before modification.

You know that targets do occasionally use cover, right?  :;):  That makes the +1 quite useful to offset the cover mod.

Thats probably why, in that very same post you quoted, I also said:

Now there are other one-shot weps that what you say applies too, I'm sure, and SF still helps DSMs and Hellstrikes shooting at targets in cover, so, hmm.




Edit:  Sorry, long day.





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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:18 am 
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On aging:

I took the Option B, which allows me to continue to regress. I highly recommend it over Option A.

:/

I also fully support CS on the mechanics. Perhaps, it doesn't completely line up with fluff, however, I do feel that it is working well as is and I don't feel like the "fluff" is a big enough reason to change at this time.

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:33 am 
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Even with the second proposal which is basically the current system but in reverse?  I do feel very loyal to the fluff, but I will bow out if I am the only voice that seams to think that the current system could be better.....

CyberShadow:  What is out of character with FW squads getting an AT attack from the Markerlight?  This is how it actually works in all published GW games that use Markerlights.  I am a little confused.


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